D&D 5E Regarding DMG, Starter Set and Essentials kit: Are they good for the starting DMs?

[Imaro]

The argument to keep the DMG as is seems to me like gatekeeping at its finest.

“This should be for me! Not for anyone else but MEEEEEEE!”

No one is arguing this... I think the majority of people believe it could be improved but when you're arguing about the number of examples included and/or instruction on recreating different playstyles with rule options... Its bound to have a subjective value for various players. Talk to me about essentials of playing (like the claim of no direction for adjudication that started the examples tangent) and I'm right there with you... but something like whether the number of examples is or isn't adequate, given the innumerable resources outside of the rules that offer these types of things and its bound to be subjective.

 

[Oofta]

It's written more with someone new to the edition in mind than someone new to the game let alone someone new to the hobby. D&D is the game someone new to the hobby is most likely to play first so it seems reasonable to acknowledge that in the rulebooks. I see no reason not to include actual useful instruction and advice in actual useful quantities other than some need for people coming to the hobby now to have the same experience of learning the game as we had in the 1980s. I see no reason to expect people coming to the hobby in the 2020s to be OK with that. I see no reason not to meet the people coming to the hobby now where they are.

I see no way a single book can cover everything for everyone. It's not a tutorial book, it's not meant to be. On the other hand you have text from a random chapter I rolled the dice and got a 4, Creating Non Player Characters. The intro to the chapter:

A nonplayer character is any character controlled by the Dungeon Master. NPCs can be enemies or allies, regular folk or named monsters. They include the local innkeeper, the old wizard who lives in the tower on the outskirts of town, the death knight out to destroy the kingdom, and the dragon counting gold in its cavernous lair.​

​

This chapter shows you how to flesh out nonplayer characters for your game. For guidelines on generating monster-like stat blocks for an NPC, see chapter 9, "Dungeon Master’s Workshop."​

Someone who has DMed a previous edition doesn't need this, a new DM might. So it is objectively clear that it does have some things for the new DM. Whether it's enough is a subjective judgement. I don't see any indication that it's particularly "tilted" toward DMs from previous editions, there's little or no* discussion of previous editions or how they relate to the current edition. I would also agree it's not a starter set.

It says what it's purpose is on the back cover

Inside you'll find world-building advice, tips and tricks for creating memorable dungeons and adventures, optional game rules, hundreds of classic D&D magic items, and many other tools to help you be a great dungeon master.​

The second paragraph in the introduction to the book states

The Dungeon Master’s Guide assumes that you know the basics of how to play the D&D tabletop roleplaying game. If you haven’t played before, the Dungeons & Dragons Starter Set is a great starting point for new players and DMs.​

​

The book is quite clear on the target audience. Someone who has never played the game before is explicitly not it. Yes, people will complain that you have to spend an entire $20 to get a starter set, but considering the incredible amount of entertainment I've gotten over the years it's an incredibly cheap hobby.

*I can't think of any but I don't have the book memorized.

 

[hawkeyefan]

It's written more with someone new to the edition in mind than someone new to the game let alone someone new to the hobby.

The Heart RPG has, in its GMing section, advice for three levels of GM experience. First is those who’ve never GMed before, second is those who’ve never GMed a story game before, and third is those who’ve never GMed Heart before.

Just some targeted advice specifically based on experience, in addition to all the other advice in the book.

It took a few pages.

 

[pointofyou]

I see no way a single book can cover everything for everyone. It's not a tutorial book, it's not meant to be. On the other hand you have text from a random chapter I rolled the dice and got a 4, Creating Non Player Characters. The intro to the chapter:

A nonplayer character is any character controlled by the Dungeon Master. NPCs can be enemies or allies, regular folk or named monsters. They include the local innkeeper, the old wizard who lives in the tower on the outskirts of town, the death knight out to destroy the kingdom, and the dragon counting gold in its cavernous lair.​

​

This chapter shows you how to flesh out nonplayer characters for your game. For guidelines on generating monster-like stat blocks for an NPC, see chapter 9, "Dungeon Master’s Workshop."​

Someone who has DMed a previous edition doesn't need this, a new DM might. So it is objectively clear that it does have some things for the new DM. Whether it's enough is a subjective judgement. I don't see any indication that it's particularly "tilted" toward DMs from previous editions, there's little or no* discussion of previous editions or how they relate to the current edition. I would also agree it's not a starter set.

It says what it's purpose is on the back cover

Inside you'll find world-building advice, tips and tricks for creating memorable dungeons and adventures, optional game rules, hundreds of classic D&D magic items, and many other tools to help you be a great dungeon master.​

The second paragraph in the introduction to the book states

The Dungeon Master’s Guide assumes that you know the basics of how to play the D&D tabletop roleplaying game. If you haven’t played before, the Dungeons & Dragons Starter Set is a great starting point for new players and DMs.​

​

The book is quite clear on the target audience. Someone who has never played the game before is explicitly not it. Yes, people will complain that you have to spend an entire $20 to get a starter set, but considering the incredible amount of entertainment I've gotten over the years it's an incredibly cheap hobby.

*I can't think of any but I don't have the book memorized.

Is there any reason they should not explicitly include someone who has never played the game in the target audience for the DMG? Is there any reason there should not be any tutorial in the book at all? After all the book does say it includes everything the DM needs. It does not say it includes everything an experienced DM needs.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

It's probably not the place to start if you've never even seen a game. But the percentage of people who want to play the game who have never played in a game, seen a streamed live play, taken a look at the free encounter with accompanying video has got to be small. How much do you want to add going after fractions?

You do of course realize none of those (my bold above) existed when the 5e DMG first came out right?

Look, I'm not one to bash WotC, but wanting to see a basic guide of How to DM - a chapter or even a few succinct pages - is not a big ask for a core book. It's not really even bashing, it's just something I, and probably a good many others (read: not just "fractions"), could have used and benefited from when firing up behind the 5e screen for the first time. I do hope they consider that for the 2024 set.

 

[pointofyou]

The Heart RPG has, in its GMing section, advice for three levels of GM experience. First is those who’ve never GMed before, second is those who’ve never GMed a story game before, and third is those who’ve never GMed Heart before.

Just some targeted advice specifically based on experience, in addition to all the other advice in the book.

It took a few pages.

But we cannot have more than 320 pages in the book. This commandment has come down from on high!

 

[Oofta]

Is there any reason they should not explicitly include someone who has never played the game in the target audience for the DMG? Is there any reason there should not be any tutorial in the book at all? After all the book does say it includes everything the DM needs. It does not say it includes everything an experienced DM needs.

I just quoted text aimed a the new DM. As far as never playing the game? They've decided that a starter set complete with an adventure and pregens is the best option. I happen to agree. They have to make some assumptions, the second paragraph of the book clearly states what those assumptions are.

People that are going to start playing D&D, much less DMing, today do not exist in a vacuum. The odds that the vast, vast majority have already played a bit or at least watched live streams.

 

[Oofta]

You do of course realize none of those (my bold above) existed when the 5e DMG first came out right?

Look, I'm not one to bash WotC, but wanting to see a basic guide of How to DM - a chapter or even a few succinct pages - is not a big ask for a core book. It's not really even bashing, it's just something I, and probably a good many others (read: not just "fractions"), could have used and benefited from when firing up behind the 5e screen for the first time. I do hope they consider that for the 2024 set.

I'm talking about what it should be today. Can't go back to the past, but we had a starter set before we had a DMG.

 

[pointofyou]

I just quoted text aimed a the new DM. As far as never playing the game? They've decided that a starter set complete with an adventure and pregens is the best option. I happen to agree. They have to make some assumptions, the second paragraph of the book clearly states what those assumptions are.

People that are going to start playing D&D, much less DMing, today do not exist in a vacuum. The odds that the vast, vast majority have already played a bit or at least watched live streams.

No one who breathes exists in a vacuum.

A starter set with pregenerated characters is a fine way to get people around a table of newbies playing D&D quickly. I am not convinced it's the best way or the only way for people new to the game to learn the game and I would like to see the corebooks written in such a way that that same table could get up and running with those if perhaps less quickly than with a dedicated starter set. I do not think the current corebooks are written in such a way as for this outcome to be likely but I have some hope the revisions will be better at least on this account.

 

[Oofta]

No one who breathes exists in a vacuum.

A starter set with pregenerated characters is a fine way to get people around a table of newbies playing D&D quickly. I am not convinced it's the best way or the only way for people new to the game to learn the game and I would like to see the corebooks written in such a way that that same table could get up and running with those if perhaps less quickly than with a dedicated starter set. I do not think the current corebooks are written in such a way as for this outcome to be likely but I have some hope the revisions will be better at least on this account.

Millions of people seem to be learning how to play the game just fine. Of course, anything can be improved.

But this thread is supposedly about starter sets and are they good for beginner DMs. I think they are.