What TV series related to the "Matter of Middle-earth" would you prefer to see?

[Hriston]

Well, the second part is the whole "Gandalf Stormcrow" causation-reversal thing. Gandalf turning up doesn't cause Sauron to be on the move - he turns up because Sauron is on the move.

So we're supposed to believe that Sauron knew that Gandalf would show up in a meteorite and told his followers to watch for it? I think that strains credulity.

 

[MarkB]

So we're supposed to believe that Sauron knew that Gandalf would show up in a meteorite and told his followers to watch for it? I think that strains credulity.

Did I say that?

 

[Hriston]

Did I say that?

No, but what other explanation could there be for the events depicted in the show?

 

[MarkB]

No, but what other explanation could there be for the events depicted in the show?

Actual foresight and prophecy? We know that exists in the setting. The Witch King's "no man may kill me" thing, for instance.

 

[Hriston]

Actual foresight and prophecy? We know that exists in the setting. The Witch King's "no man may kill me" thing, for instance.

Sure, I was imagining such foresight on the part of Sauron because it's his followers that we see expressing that belief, but it could come from elsewhere. In the case of the prophecy about the Witch-king, we know it originates from the foresight of Glorfindel, but there is no explanation given on the show for the origin of the belief among Sauron's followers that the meteor signifies his return. It seems to exist only to create confusion about the identity of the Stranger.

 

[MarkB]

Sure, I was imagining such foresight on the part of Sauron because it's his followers that we see expressing that belief, but it could come from elsewhere. In the case of the prophecy about the Witch-king, we know it originates from the foresight of Glorfindel, but there is no explanation given on the show for the origin of the belief among Sauron's followers that the meteor signifies his return.

Well, the trio in white seemed to be pretty magically powerful themselves, so I wouldn't put it past them or other members of the organisation to have access to divination. As for Walgren, he didn't seem like the sharpest tool in the shed - he'd probably think anything impressive and unexplained was an omen.

It seems to exist only to create confusion about the identity of the Stranger.

Narratively, the Witch King prophecy existed only to give Eowyn a moment of awesome.

 

[Hriston]

Well, the trio in white seemed to be pretty magically powerful themselves, so I wouldn't put it past them or other members of the organisation to have access to divination. As for Walgren, he didn't seem like the sharpest tool in the shed - he'd probably think anything impressive and unexplained was an omen.

Divination that leads them to Gandalf when they're looking for Sauron? And for Waldreg to come to the same incorrect conclusion independently is too much of a coincidence for me to swallow.

Narratively, the Witch King prophecy existed only to give Eowyn a moment of awesome.

Yes, it is awesome because Tolkien was a great storyteller, but the prophecy also has a causal reason for existing within the fiction. RoP provides no such reason for the existence of whatever information was available to Waldreg and the three travellers about the meteorite and which led the travellers to misidentify the Stranger.

 

[MarkB]

Divination that leads them to Gandalf when they're looking for Sauron?

Misinterpreting prophecy is a classic of fantasy fiction.

And for Waldreg to come to the same incorrect conclusion independently is too much of a coincidence for me to swallow.

Waldreg's an idiot, and he was desperate for Sauron to return. It was a conclusion he was primed to jump to.

Yes, it is awesome because Tolkien was a great storyteller, but the prophecy also has a causal reason for existing within the fiction. RoP provides no such reason for the existence of whatever information was available to Waldreg and the three travellers about the meteorite and which led the travellers to misidentify the Stranger.

The main text of LotR doesn't give the origin of the Witch King prophecy. I never knew it had anything to do with Glorfindel until you mentioned it a few posts ago. That never made it any less valid to me.

 

[Hriston]

Misinterpreting prophecy is a classic of fantasy fiction.

You don't need access to magical powers of divination to misinterpret a prophecy.

Waldreg's an idiot, and he was desperate for Sauron to return. It was a conclusion he was primed to jump to.

Right, and so are the witches idiots, and so is any viewer, like me, who accepted the show's misdirection as honest storytelling. At that point, I'd say the writing is more akin to trolling.

The main text of LotR doesn't give the origin of the Witch King prophecy. I never knew it had anything to do with Glorfindel until you mentioned it a few posts ago. That never made it any less valid to me.

Tolkien left it to the reader to interpret the prophecy for themselves and had it play out in a surprising way. The show, on the other hand, had Gandalf land in a crater that looked like the Eye of Sauron when seen in an overhead shot that was repeatedly emphasized in the recaps and had sinister sounding whispering echoing voices in the soundtrack every time Gandalf performed magic, breaking Largo's ankle to his own advantage at one point, reminiscent of Sauron's whisperings that could be heard at many points in Jackson's LotR and Hobbit movies. The possible existence of a prophecy as stated by an unreliable Waldreg and acted upon by clearly powerful wraithlike beings who should have known what they were doing was just corroboration of what the show was already telling the viewer was true in the fiction. When it was revealed in the final episode that Sauron was Halbrand and not the Stranger, it felt like I'd been lied to. That actually made the show less enjoyable for me.

 

[MarkB]

Tolkien left it to the reader to interpret the prophecy for themselves and had it play out in a surprising way. The show, on the other hand, had Gandalf land in a crater that looked like the Eye of Sauron when seen in an overhead shot that was repeatedly emphasized in the recaps and had sinister sounding whispering echoing voices in the soundtrack every time Gandalf performed magic, breaking Largo's ankle to his own advantage at one point, reminiscent of Sauron's whisperings that could be heard at many points in Jackson's LotR and Hobbit movies. The possible existence of a prophecy as stated by an unreliable Waldreg and acted upon by clearly powerful wraithlike beings who should have known what they were doing was just corroboration of what the show was already telling the viewer was true in the fiction. When it was revealed in the final episode that Sauron was Halbrand and not the Stranger, it felt like I'd been lied to. That actually made the show less enjoyable for me.

Can't help you there. I've had that experience with other shows, but didn't get it with this one. It was obvious from the start that they were deliberately presenting multiple possible Sauron candidates and making it ambiguous as to which - if any - he was. I just accepted that as part of the premise, and kept an open mind.