Edena_of_Neith
First Post
Peter Jackson made a very major change in Tolkien's story concerning the Timeline of Events.
He did this ... and he did not do this. That is to say, I cannot prove Peter Jackson made any changes in the Timeline at all, but ... changes in the Timeline are implied rather forcefully in the film.
The changes I am referring to involve Gandalf, Frodo, and by default Sam, Merry, and Pippin.
- - -
Here is the Timeline as set forth by Tolkien (this is a rough timeline, since I do not have my copy of Return of the King handy, and must extrapolate by rereading Fellowship of the Rings.)
Bilbo's 111th Birthday: This occurs, and is the base point of the timeline.
BBB + 3 years: Gandalf visits Frodo. He will visit on and off again for the next 2 years.
BBB + 16 (?) years: Gandalf visits Frodo. Gandalf proves Frodo's Ring is the One Ring. They discuss the whole matter (the Shadow of the Past.) Frodo decides to destroy the Ring in Mount Doom. Sam ends up being his companion.
BBB + 16 years and over 2 months: Gandalf leaves the Shire.
BBB + 16 years and over 5 months: Frodo leaves Bag End, just as the Nazgul reach Bag End.
In other words, Gandalf's first visit with Frodo after Bilbo's Birthday Party was 2 years after the Birthday Party.
The big visit, as it were - the visit that set off everything that followed - occurred 16 years after the Party.
Then, it would be over 5 months (April to September) before Frodo himself set out on his quest to destroy the Ring, Sam at his side.
It is implied in the book Fellowship of the Ring, that Gandalf and Frodo had no significant discussions during the visits 2 to 5 years after the Party - they COULD have been significant, but Tolkien doesn't say, one way or another (at least, not according to my limited knowledge of Tolkien's works. He might have said something in the other works about these visits.)
So, that is the timeline.
We all know, of course, that during those 16 years Gandalf and Aragorn hunted down Gollum.
We know that Gandalf visited Minas Tirith during those years, and read Isildur's writings.
We know that the Black Riders set forth from Minas Morgul in the final year before Frodo set forth, and over a period of many months finally discovered the location of the Shire and stormed their way through the Rangers at Sarn Ford, commencing their invasion of the Shire.
And finally, we know that Gandalf - who did not know the Nazgul had set forth - went south to Isengard for help from Saruman, and was betrayed.
- - -
Now, in the film Fellowship of the Rings, the timeline is honored in words.
For example, Gandalf states the exact date (and, if I remember right, the exact time as well) when Frodo awakens in Rivendell.
There is absolutely NO way for me to prove that Peter Jackson IN ANY WAY altered Tolkien's Timeline as set forth above.
I wish to make that clear now. In no way can I prove Jackson wasn't absolutely faithful to Tolkien's works in this regard.
Having said that ... consider the following ...
- - -
I asked someone who had not read any of Tolkien's works, but who had seen the film FOTR 3 times, to guess the amount of time that had passed between the major events set forth in the Timeline.
This person said:
Bilbo's Birthday Party occured (as in the book.)
Frodo and Gandalf talked after the Party, then Gandalf departed.
Gandalf returned TWO WEEKS later (I described the distance from the Shire to Minas Tirith, and we discussed how fast a horse could run, after I heard this from said person.)
Frodo set out IMMEDIATELY from Bag End, with Sam (as in, he set out right after Gandalf himself left.)
The Black Riders set out almost IMMEDIATELY after Bilbo's Birthday Party.
Now, why would this person get such an impression?
Well now ...
In the film, there is a great sense of urgency in Gandalf's voice, when he speaks to Frodo after the Party (I don't have any answers, Frodo ... that was said, implying Gandalf wanted answers, and wanted them quickly.)
The scene showing Barad-dur comes right after that, then we see the Black Riders issuing forth from Minas Morgul.
We see Gandalf galloping up to Minas Tirith, and fire and thunder erupts from Mount Doom in the distance.
All of this massively increases the sense of urgency.
Gandalf reads the writings of Isildur.
Then, we are back with Frodo, and there is Gandalf suddenly grabbing him out of the darkness (IS IT HIDDEN?! IS IT SAFE?!)
We see Gandalf throwing it in the fire, proving it is indeed the One Ring.
Then we see the Black Riders storming through the Shire's borders, killing one of the Bounders (a very unfortunate, hapless hobbit, that Bounder ...)
We see Frodo hastily throwing clothes into a backpack. Everything that is said implies an immediate departure.
Then Gandalf espies Sam, drags him into Bag End, and implies that Sam shall be going with Frodo, which turns out to be the case.
Then we see Gandalf departing (to meet Sauruman.)
However, when he departs, he, Frodo, and Sam, are ON THE ROAD ALREADY.
And this is the first scene after the - hurried - discussion in Bag End.
So, it is implied that Gandalf immediately raced to Minas Tirith after Bilbo's Birthday Party.
It is implied he raced back to Bag End immediately.
Just how long that would take, depends on how fast Gandalf's horse could go without collapsing - it is a long way from Bag End to Minas Tirith.
It is implied that Frodo and Sam set out within an hour after Gandalf and Frodo talked (and Sam was grabbed and pulled in the window.)
So, without actually altering the Timeline, Peter Jackson ... altered the Timeline.
I honestly believe the average person who has not read Tolkien (or who has read Tolkien but is fuzzy about the specifics) would think like the person did, that I talked to.
They would believe the implied timeline.
Some of them might even think the implied timeline more logical than Tolkien's actual timeline.
They might say that Gandalf, realizing Frodo's Ring might be the One Ring, and thus crucial to the survival of Middle Earth, would race to Minas Tirith to find out.
They might say, that Gandalf would race back to Bag End afterwards - his suspicions just about confirmed.
They might say, that once Gandalf and Frodo realized this was the One Ring, that is was necessary that all possible haste be made to get the Ring to safety - and, since Sauron knew now of the Shire because of Gollum - that there was very extreme urgency for Frodo to leave, right then and there.
Now, I am NOT SAYING they are right.
I am NOT SAYING that Peter Jackson improved on Tolkien!
I am merely commenting on what THOSE PEOPLE (who have not read Tolkien) might say.
What I AM saying, is that Peter Jackson changed Tolkien's storyline.
I cannot prove it, because in the film Gandalf gives clear dates and times, but it is implied.
Also, there are implied changes in the timeline concerning Rivendell and Lothlorien.
The person I talked to, when asked how long Frodo stayed in each place, guessed 2 or 3 DAYS (after Frodo recovered) in Rivendell, and 1 DAY in Lothlorien.
We knew that Frodo stayed for over 2 months in Rivendell, and over a month in Lothlorien.
Again, Peter Jackson did not challenge Tolkien's timeline, but the way in which events were portrayed, and most importantly the way the characters TALKED, implied differently.
And again, I believe that the average person who has not read Tolkien, or who has but is fuzzy on the details, would have been fooled by the film.
- - -
Peter Jackson has - in my opinion - changed Tolkien's story by the implied changes in the timeline.
I was wondering what all of you, who know Tolkien extraordinarily well, in and out, think of this?
What do you think of Peter Jackson's decision to imply a speeded up Timeline?
He did this ... and he did not do this. That is to say, I cannot prove Peter Jackson made any changes in the Timeline at all, but ... changes in the Timeline are implied rather forcefully in the film.
The changes I am referring to involve Gandalf, Frodo, and by default Sam, Merry, and Pippin.
- - -
Here is the Timeline as set forth by Tolkien (this is a rough timeline, since I do not have my copy of Return of the King handy, and must extrapolate by rereading Fellowship of the Rings.)
Bilbo's 111th Birthday: This occurs, and is the base point of the timeline.
BBB + 3 years: Gandalf visits Frodo. He will visit on and off again for the next 2 years.
BBB + 16 (?) years: Gandalf visits Frodo. Gandalf proves Frodo's Ring is the One Ring. They discuss the whole matter (the Shadow of the Past.) Frodo decides to destroy the Ring in Mount Doom. Sam ends up being his companion.
BBB + 16 years and over 2 months: Gandalf leaves the Shire.
BBB + 16 years and over 5 months: Frodo leaves Bag End, just as the Nazgul reach Bag End.
In other words, Gandalf's first visit with Frodo after Bilbo's Birthday Party was 2 years after the Birthday Party.
The big visit, as it were - the visit that set off everything that followed - occurred 16 years after the Party.
Then, it would be over 5 months (April to September) before Frodo himself set out on his quest to destroy the Ring, Sam at his side.
It is implied in the book Fellowship of the Ring, that Gandalf and Frodo had no significant discussions during the visits 2 to 5 years after the Party - they COULD have been significant, but Tolkien doesn't say, one way or another (at least, not according to my limited knowledge of Tolkien's works. He might have said something in the other works about these visits.)
So, that is the timeline.
We all know, of course, that during those 16 years Gandalf and Aragorn hunted down Gollum.
We know that Gandalf visited Minas Tirith during those years, and read Isildur's writings.
We know that the Black Riders set forth from Minas Morgul in the final year before Frodo set forth, and over a period of many months finally discovered the location of the Shire and stormed their way through the Rangers at Sarn Ford, commencing their invasion of the Shire.
And finally, we know that Gandalf - who did not know the Nazgul had set forth - went south to Isengard for help from Saruman, and was betrayed.
- - -
Now, in the film Fellowship of the Rings, the timeline is honored in words.
For example, Gandalf states the exact date (and, if I remember right, the exact time as well) when Frodo awakens in Rivendell.
There is absolutely NO way for me to prove that Peter Jackson IN ANY WAY altered Tolkien's Timeline as set forth above.
I wish to make that clear now. In no way can I prove Jackson wasn't absolutely faithful to Tolkien's works in this regard.
Having said that ... consider the following ...
- - -
I asked someone who had not read any of Tolkien's works, but who had seen the film FOTR 3 times, to guess the amount of time that had passed between the major events set forth in the Timeline.
This person said:
Bilbo's Birthday Party occured (as in the book.)
Frodo and Gandalf talked after the Party, then Gandalf departed.
Gandalf returned TWO WEEKS later (I described the distance from the Shire to Minas Tirith, and we discussed how fast a horse could run, after I heard this from said person.)
Frodo set out IMMEDIATELY from Bag End, with Sam (as in, he set out right after Gandalf himself left.)
The Black Riders set out almost IMMEDIATELY after Bilbo's Birthday Party.
Now, why would this person get such an impression?
Well now ...
In the film, there is a great sense of urgency in Gandalf's voice, when he speaks to Frodo after the Party (I don't have any answers, Frodo ... that was said, implying Gandalf wanted answers, and wanted them quickly.)
The scene showing Barad-dur comes right after that, then we see the Black Riders issuing forth from Minas Morgul.
We see Gandalf galloping up to Minas Tirith, and fire and thunder erupts from Mount Doom in the distance.
All of this massively increases the sense of urgency.
Gandalf reads the writings of Isildur.
Then, we are back with Frodo, and there is Gandalf suddenly grabbing him out of the darkness (IS IT HIDDEN?! IS IT SAFE?!)
We see Gandalf throwing it in the fire, proving it is indeed the One Ring.
Then we see the Black Riders storming through the Shire's borders, killing one of the Bounders (a very unfortunate, hapless hobbit, that Bounder ...)
We see Frodo hastily throwing clothes into a backpack. Everything that is said implies an immediate departure.
Then Gandalf espies Sam, drags him into Bag End, and implies that Sam shall be going with Frodo, which turns out to be the case.
Then we see Gandalf departing (to meet Sauruman.)
However, when he departs, he, Frodo, and Sam, are ON THE ROAD ALREADY.
And this is the first scene after the - hurried - discussion in Bag End.
So, it is implied that Gandalf immediately raced to Minas Tirith after Bilbo's Birthday Party.
It is implied he raced back to Bag End immediately.
Just how long that would take, depends on how fast Gandalf's horse could go without collapsing - it is a long way from Bag End to Minas Tirith.
It is implied that Frodo and Sam set out within an hour after Gandalf and Frodo talked (and Sam was grabbed and pulled in the window.)
So, without actually altering the Timeline, Peter Jackson ... altered the Timeline.
I honestly believe the average person who has not read Tolkien (or who has read Tolkien but is fuzzy about the specifics) would think like the person did, that I talked to.
They would believe the implied timeline.
Some of them might even think the implied timeline more logical than Tolkien's actual timeline.
They might say that Gandalf, realizing Frodo's Ring might be the One Ring, and thus crucial to the survival of Middle Earth, would race to Minas Tirith to find out.
They might say, that Gandalf would race back to Bag End afterwards - his suspicions just about confirmed.
They might say, that once Gandalf and Frodo realized this was the One Ring, that is was necessary that all possible haste be made to get the Ring to safety - and, since Sauron knew now of the Shire because of Gollum - that there was very extreme urgency for Frodo to leave, right then and there.
Now, I am NOT SAYING they are right.
I am NOT SAYING that Peter Jackson improved on Tolkien!
I am merely commenting on what THOSE PEOPLE (who have not read Tolkien) might say.
What I AM saying, is that Peter Jackson changed Tolkien's storyline.
I cannot prove it, because in the film Gandalf gives clear dates and times, but it is implied.
Also, there are implied changes in the timeline concerning Rivendell and Lothlorien.
The person I talked to, when asked how long Frodo stayed in each place, guessed 2 or 3 DAYS (after Frodo recovered) in Rivendell, and 1 DAY in Lothlorien.
We knew that Frodo stayed for over 2 months in Rivendell, and over a month in Lothlorien.
Again, Peter Jackson did not challenge Tolkien's timeline, but the way in which events were portrayed, and most importantly the way the characters TALKED, implied differently.
And again, I believe that the average person who has not read Tolkien, or who has but is fuzzy on the details, would have been fooled by the film.
- - -
Peter Jackson has - in my opinion - changed Tolkien's story by the implied changes in the timeline.
I was wondering what all of you, who know Tolkien extraordinarily well, in and out, think of this?
What do you think of Peter Jackson's decision to imply a speeded up Timeline?