D&D 5E Is the Default Playstyle of 5E "Monty Haul?"

[MwaO]

I'm the Andy listed at about minutes 9-11. But basically, the "typical campaign" of 5e says you get about 1 consumable per level and 1 permanent, number changing magic item every 4 levels. So if you're handing out more magic items than that, your campaign might have to really ramp up difficulty. Less than that, you might need to pull back. Adventurer's League tends to double the numbers, so they often have some issues at higher levels due to PC power levels.

A 10th level PC with 5 magic items will be able to handle a range of combats per day that a level 10 PC with 0 will start dying on. The way this commonly shows up is that campaigns default to not having 6-8 combats per day.

Dragon Talk: #328 - Aliza Pearl, How To DM on Magic Items

01:39:30 - Welcome 2022 with Greg & Shelly as they ring in the new year! Later, we welcome back freelance author and developer Teos Abadia for another edit…

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D&D 5E - Magic Item Math of 5e

How many magic items should a typical 5e campaign have per PC? DMG, bottom of page 133: Over the course of a typical campaign, a party finds treasure hoards amounting to seven rolls on the Challenge 0-4 table, eighteen rolls on the Challenge 5-10 table, twelve rolls on the Challenge 11-16...

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[Retreater]

The important question is: are your players having fun? That's why I still play D&D. All of the positives you mention (tactical combat, resource management, demanding full engagement) are not positives for everyone. In fact, probably not most people.

They are having fun only because I'm putting in considerable (and often exhausting) levels of effort fighting against the system.
And no, nobody wants to play another system.

 

[tetrasodium]

That's the theory, and it's a good one.

The practice, however, is that many DMs want to run it straight out of the tin without tweaking anything; and - even more so - many players expect it to be run that way.

That's the prickly bit to frustrate GM's. 5e barely guides the GM & provides little cover the gm can point to while saying "that was the design goal" . When players are provided even less expectation that the GM would be overriding the rules & such they start pushing back hard.

 

[Retreater]

A follow-up question to the title of the thread:
Does the default playstyle matter to you?

Only insofar as I struggle against the core assumptions of the system and try to make it do things it can't do.
Examples:
1) The party is in a dungeon and there's no logical reason they can't recover in a secure location. So they rest and get full access to every spell and class feature.
2) The 6-8 encounters per adventuring day can't logically happen in reasonable campaign worlds that feature remotely civilized lands, urban environments, or even wilderness areas that aren't actually the Nine Hells.
3) If you cut access to rest, you risk weakening the casters and those who depend on the recharge. The remaining party members do not get limited accordingly.
4) If you run published adventures, you're out of luck without lots of modifications.
5) If you run on automated VTTs, you might be out of luck without lots of modifications.

 

[dave2008]

Given enough time a minnow can move the Queen Mary, and with any luck I'm not the only minnow.

But the Queen Mary isn't docked at these forums.

That, and a minnow would die long before it could move the Queen Mary.

 

[dave2008]

Only insofar as I struggle against the core assumptions of the system and try to make it do things it can't do.
Examples:
1) The party is in a dungeon and there's no logical reason they can't recover in a secure location. So they rest and get full access to every spell and class feature.

Why is there no reasonable reason they can't recover? I can see that being the case a few times, but regularly? We don't do a lot of dungeon crawls, but when they do it is never a safe place to rest.

2) The 6-8 encounters per adventuring day can't logically happen in reasonable campaign worlds that feature remotely civilized lands, urban environments, or even wilderness areas that aren't actually the Nine Hells.

The game works just fine with fewer encounters. We average about 2.5-3 encounters per long rest and have not experienced the issues you have described. Maybe you should try fewer more difficult encounters.

3) If you cut access to rest, you risk weakening the casters and those who depend on the recharge. The remaining party members do not get limited accordingly.

I thought you wanted the game to be more difficult and know you complain a protentional solution makes the game more difficult? Have you tried it? This has not been an issue for our mixed caster & martial group.

4) If you run published adventures, you're out of luck without lots of modifications.

Can't help you there. I don't run published adventures. However, out of luck about what without mods? It seems the primary mod would be to make encounters more difficult which seems easy enough.

5) If you run on automated VTTs, you might be out of luck without lots of modifications.

We haven't jumper to VTTs yet, so can't help you there.

 

[MichaelSomething]

They are having fun only because I'm putting in considerable (and often exhausting) levels of effort fighting against the system.
And no, nobody wants to play another system.

Then stop fighting against the system? I bet your players would be more willing to change systems after the fifth TPK/bore fest. Or they quit playing all together. Less work for you either way.

Or quit being the DM and get someone else to run? Maybe they can all go to the "Start Playing" website and find a DM who doesn't find the effort exhausting?

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

The Monty Haul Problem for D&D

The party comes to a room with three doors. In the middle of the room is the Mad Dungeon Architect Zagyg (no relation).

Zagyg stares at the party and say, Behind one door are the uncountable and fabulous magical riches of the Great Emperor, Monty Haul. Behind the other two doors are quantum ogres. Choose your door wisely!

The party confers and chooses door 1. Zagyg smiles, and opens door number 2, revealing a quantum ogre.

Zagyg then asks the party …
Do you still want to open door 1? Or do you want to open door 3 instead?

WHAT DOES THE PARTY DO? DO THEY OPEN DOOR 1, OR SWITCH TO DOOR 3? HAS ZAGYG TOTES RAILROADED YOU? WHY DOES MATH HURTZ ME BRAIN SO MUCH?

 

[Bill Zebub]

Had my 5E group play some 2E. 3 of them never played it before. 2 of them LOVE it, the 3rd feels underpowered.

The 2 that love it, love that, and I quote, "The dice rolls feel more important. I actually feel like I'm doing something." "I love that when I swing my axe it can completely change how the battle is going."

One player always ran into rooms and tripped traps etc in 5E because he knew he could easily survive almost anything. Now he actually lets the Thief do her job and uses strategy and caution. Battles have become much more fun.

And they actually love getting XP now (and I love giving it now too). It feels earned.

I don't think ill ever run 5th ed again.

Every now and then I look at an OSR game, and just the other day bought Five Torches Deep. Thinking about seeing if I can interest some players in a game.

 

[Retreater]

Why is there no reasonable reason they can't recover? I can see that being the case a few times, but regularly? We don't do a lot of dungeon crawls, but when they do it is never a safe place to rest.

They lock the doors - and hope they don't have blasters.
But basically there aren't enough monsters in the dungeon to suitably press an attack. Or the characters block the doorway into the room and the creatures get stuck trying to fight a tank one-on-one who they rarely hit and can scarcely damage. It's boring for the players in the back rank and not especially dynamic or fun for the front rank.

The game works just fine with fewer encounters. We average about 2.5-3 encounters per long rest and have not experienced the issues you have described. Maybe you should try fewer more difficult encounters.

I do. I throw encounters that can be ridiculous by nearly any metric at this party.
Just for the fun of it, I ran a sample combat using their characters and typical strategies. At 6th level, I was able to defeat a marilith. Granted, I used nearly every resource and did (barely) have a single PC death. But we're talking about a marilith against a 6th level party.

I thought you wanted the game to be more difficult and know you complain a protentional solution makes the game more difficult? Have you tried it? This has not been an issue for our mixed caster & martial group.

I've tried it twice as a player - once as a wizard and again as a druid. It was punishing in a way that didn't make the game more fun or exciting. It limited my options to cantrips. Having one or two Magic Missile spells a week isn't fun for me.
Do you also limit a rogue's Sneak Attack to once per combat? Her bonus Cunning Action to once a week?
My issue isn't that the group gets too many spells or powers. It's that they rarely miss attacks, are rarely hit by enemies, and the enemies do too little damage to threaten their massive pools of hit points.

Can't help you there. I don't run published adventures. However, out of luck about what without mods? It seems the primary mod would be to make encounters more difficult which seems easy enough.

The solution I'd have is to completely recalibrate the attack bonuses of all monsters and the damage output. Also changing resistances and immunities to have weight in the game. And adjusting saving throw bonuses and AC for the creatures. And to make spells like Hold Person worth taking (like it would average to be more than one round being held, or at least to give some sort of Slowed Condition after the first successful save).

As it is, I'm not sure how playable 5e is after Tier 1.