D&D (2024) Subclasses at first level and multiclassing

[CreamCloud0]

I commented this in the other multiclass thread but on the off chance that different people are looking at this thread I’ll post it here too.

IMO I’d make a character require a prerequisite feat in order to multiclass to any given class, it would provide all the proficiencies granted by multiclassing regularly (I think multiclassing in general/this feat should also provide one additional skill proficiency from the chosen class) as a ‘level 0’ bonus.

This level of investment would cut down on dipping or at least make a player consider the decision a bit more ahead of time, weighing it against another feat or ASI and with level 1 feats your ability to multiclass wouldn’t even be restricted to after 4th level.

 

[Clint_L]

That seems like a pretty hypothetical discussion to have in the OneD&D sub-forum, because granting a sub-class at 1st level has not been proposed for OneD&D, and does not seem to be in the cards. In the test materials released, sub-classing was still at 3rd level, and WotC has emphasized that they aren't making substantial changes to the 5e chassis.

 

[mellored]

Going back to the original post - I'm a fan of 3rd level subclasses. But some people want subclass 1st elvel, and for me that would need to go hand-in-hand with a multiclassing solution that prevents cherry-picking from being overpowered at any level (low and high).

So, for the purposes of this thread, can we discuss how to either prevent cherrypicking or to ensure that multiclassing a 1st or 2nd level of a class does not provide more power than advancing a class you already have while still granting subclass at 1st.

As long as levels 5/11/17 are more powerful than level 1, it will be very difficult to have multiclassing be more powerful than a base class.

Also, as long as the power difference isn't huge. I really have no problem with multiclassing being a little better.

If some combination of classes deals 5% more damage, then that's a little reward for those who get into the game more.

If some combination of classes deals 50% more damage, then that's bad for the game.

As far a limiting choices at 1 to help new players. I like more choices and I like new players....

I would probably have to lean on the side of new players. Including having casters start with a pre-selected set of spells, pre-selected equipment, spell preparation at level 2, and then subclass at level 3.

Lets move the complexity to higher levels and encourage more experience gamers to start at higher levels.

A first subclass at 3, 6, 9. And the a second subclass at level 13, 16, 19 would be cool. Including taking a second on in your class as well as some multiclass - sub classes.

So you could have a rogue that takes arcane trickster at 3, 6, 9 and then assassin at 13, 16, 19.
Or a rogue that takes ranger at 3, 6, 9 and bard at 13, 16, 19.

 

[Maxperson]

No subclass at level 1 please. Keep levels 1 & 2 with minimal decision points to make them newbie friendly. Level 3 is then a great reward as players really see their characters develop.

The DMs Toolbox would be a great place to put how to merge the abilities into level 1 for those who want to start that way. It's pretty easy to let everyone have what they want with this.

 

[tetrasodium]

I commented this in the other multiclass thread but on the off chance that different people are looking at this thread I’ll post it here too.

IMO I’d make a character require a prerequisite feat in order to multiclass to any given class, it would provide all the proficiencies granted by multiclassing regularly (I think multiclassing in general/this feat should also provide one additional skill proficiency from the chosen class) as a ‘level 0’ bonus.

This level of investment would cut down on dipping or at least make a player consider the decision a bit more ahead of time, weighing it against another feat or ASI and with level 1 feats your ability to multiclass wouldn’t even be restricted to after 4th level.

I'm mobile for the holidays so can't check specifics but a feat alone will just be a "turn key to unlock" that sets a floor on how good a Mc combo must be. That encourages powerful combos or requires nothing but mediocre ones & neither is healthy.

The Pf2 style multiclass feats work because you have more feats and need to send a good number at level specific points. Here's a phrase I pulled from a guide for one I remember "Monks’ Flurry gets you access to Flurry of Blows, but remember that it’s a Flourish so you can’t combine it with things like Double Shot or Two-Weapon Flurry. There’s a lot to capitalize on here."

5e does not have the feat budget or system depth for that kind of nuance so it's left with more" take the whole basket" & carrying that basket should come with a cost that fits carrying both on one pc. If it can put pressure on the PC to go full bore on both rather than single class plus dip for the big stuff even better

 

[Knight_Marshal]

Most people are not born stupid. It is the world's desire to make things overly simple so that people do not have to think is what is making them that way.

 

[mellored]

Most people are not born stupid. It is the world's desire to make things overly simple so that people do not have to think is what is making them that way.

IMO, it's less about "stupid" and more about "busy". If everyone had time, then add all the options you want.

But if you have 2 hours to play, would you rather spend 60 minutes looking over all the options and 60 playing.
Or do you want to spend 10 minutes making a character and 110 minutes playing?

Then next level, you can spend another 10 minutes looking over more options.

 

[Lojaan]

The DMs Toolbox would be a great place to put how to merge the abilities into level 1 for those who want to start that way. It's pretty easy to let everyone have what they want with this.

Exactly! However you need to make it so that the default is level 3 otherwise players will complain that you are "punishing" them if you don't let them do it

 

[mellored]

Exactly! However you need to make it so that the default is level 3 otherwise players will complain that you are "punishing" them if you don't let them do it

I would make it level 5.

Most campaigns don't do more than 10 levels. So making level 5 the default start would allow for a nice middle section of levels.

If we get it to 20 minutes to make a character + 10 minutes per level..

Beginners/simple: 1-10, 20 minutes
Moderate/intermediate: 5-15, 60 minutes
Expert/complex: 11-20, 120 minutes

Now we just need to give weapon characters enough options to match people picking spells.

 

[Maxperson]

Exactly! However you need to make it so that the default is level 3 otherwise players will complain that you are "punishing" them if you don't let them do it

I don't think the default starting level should be level 3. You start counting from one, so that doesn't make a lot of sense. Merging the abilities/subclass to level 1 AND starting at level 3+ should be optional rules in the DMG. Let the groups decide where they start and with what.