WotC WotC needs an Elon Musk

[Veltharis ap Rylix]

And has this ever been more than a fan-theory?

Not to my knowledge, but I could be wrong.

Even Planescape has its mysteries.

 

[Micah Sweet]

So you think that you're capable of educating about and providing context to SA or other vastly morally reprehensible things?

Not really, but I don't generally use SA in my games. I would be fine if someone wanted it as a background element for their PC, if the group is cool with it.

 

[Maxperson]

Now, can you address my points about the World Axis, The World Tree and the Great Wheel without bringing the Orrery in it to try and distract from my points? Because notably the names "Shavarath", "Irian", and "Mabar" made no appearance in my discussion on how the Great Wheel, The World Axis, and the World Tree present the various pieces associated with Ysgard.

Or is this another example of your "just saying what you mean" to immediately deflect from a direct question instead of answering it?

I've answered it 10 times(slight exaggeration) already. In 5e there is no difference with any of those as to what planes are there. All of them are. They are just known by different names and/or with a different imaginary cosmological construction.

You know that in the World Tree cosmology Arvandor is a plane right?

Yep! The plane of Arborea, first layer. The inhabitants just don't know it by Arborea. Just because they call Arvandor a plane doesn't make it so. It's just what they call the first layer of Arborea.

And if I change it, the DMG will magically alter to offer other cosmologies?

If you change it you will have your own personal cosmology for your game. What would you need the DMG for at that point?

Oh, wait, no. It won't. The Great Wheel will still be the Cosmology of DnD, and I'll have just done the work to create something else. Such equality of ideas.

Why does it matter what the default is if you have changed the cosmology for your game to suit your liking?

 

[Micah Sweet]

I've answered it 10 times(slight exaggeration) already. In 5e there is no difference with any of those as to what planes are there. All of them are. They are just known by different names and/or with a different imaginary cosmological construction.

Yep! The plane of Arborea, first layer. The inhabitants just don't know it by Arborea. Just because they call Arvandor a plane doesn't make it so. It's just what they call the first layer of Arborea.

If you change it you will have your own personal cosmology for your game. What would you need the DMG for at that point?

So what. Why does it matter what the default is if you have changed the cosmology for your game to suit your liking?

Everybody wants the book to back up their opinion.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Not to my knowledge, but I could be wrong.

Even Planescape has its mysteries.

And I like that Planescape can have mysteries. But if it has never been shown in an official product that the Great Wheel is just flat-out wrong, or there is something in it isn't a demi-plane but is a full on unexplained plane of existence, then it feels really hard to justify the constant refrain of "but this is just a theory, not reality"

What is presented in the Rule Books is reality for the setting. We can change it, but if the books say there are 9 layers of Hell, and then lists the 9 layers of hell, it is really hard to justify the idea that there could secretly be 12 layers and no one, not even Asmodeus, is aware of them.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Everybody wants the book to back up their opinion.

No, I don't want the book to back up an opinion. I want the book to provide me more than one option for the cosmology of DnD. And no, lip service like "but there are other models" without actually providing those other models as fully realized versions of the cosmology are not giving different options. It would be like saying you have three different meat options, a hamburger, a hamburger in a tortilla shell, or a hamburger on toast. Those are all the same option for meat.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I've answered it 10 times(slight exaggeration) already. In 5e there is no difference with any of those as to what planes are there. All of them are. They are just known by different names and/or with a different imaginary cosmological construction.

So the only option is the Great Wheel. There are no other options. That's why you refuse to answer the very obvious question I posed about Ysgard.

Yep! The plane of Arborea, first layer. The inhabitants just don't know it by Arborea. Just because they call Arvandor a plane doesn't make it so. It's just what they call the first layer of Arborea.

Right, "Hey DM who is using the cosmology where Arvandor is a fully realized plane. You're people are just dumb and ignorant and think the first layer of a different plane is a fully realized plane. You're free to use the World Tree Model and have it listed that way, but you just need to know that you are wrong and that isn't how it REALLY works."

Glad every option is given equal respect. Or, rather, everyone not using the Great Wheel gets pointed at and laughed at because they are using the dumb wrong versions of things.

If you change it you will have your own personal cosmology for your game. What would you need the DMG for at that point?

Why does it matter what the default is if you have changed the cosmology for your game to suit your liking?

Why could it possibly matter to offer more than one model for cosmologies in DnD? Why might you want the DMG to do things like, detail the planes of existence that you might be using in your game. I mean, as long as you are using the Great Wheel everything is perfectly fine.

Question. If it doesn't matter that much... why do I get the feeling everyone who is using the Great Wheel would be REALLY upset if the 2024 DMG didn't include Mount Celestia, Bytopia, Arcadia, Hades, or any of the other Great Wheel specific planes of existence and instead included things like The Gates of the Moon, Roothold and the Dismal Caverns, Cynosure and other non-Great Wheel locations?

 

[Remathilis]

Not really, but I don't generally use SA in my games. I would be fine if someone wanted it as a background element for their PC, if the group is cool with it.

And if someone wasn't?

 

[Maxperson]

So the only option is the Great Wheel. There are no other options. That's why you refuse to answer the very obvious question I posed about Ysgard.



Right, "Hey DM who is using the cosmology where Arvandor is a fully realized plane. You're people are just dumb and ignorant and think the first layer of a different plane is a fully realized plane. You're free to use the World Tree Model and have it listed that way, but you just need to know that you are wrong and that isn't how it REALLY works."

Glad every option is given equal respect. Or, rather, everyone not using the Great Wheel gets pointed at and laughed at because they are using the dumb wrong versions of things.



Why could it possibly matter to offer more than one model for cosmologies in DnD? Why might you want the DMG to do things like, detail the planes of existence that you might be using in your game. I mean, as long as you are using the Great Wheel everything is perfectly fine.

Question. If it doesn't matter that much... why do I get the feeling everyone who is using the Great Wheel would be REALLY upset if the 2024 DMG didn't include Mount Celestia, Bytopia, Arcadia, Hades, or any of the other Great Wheel specific planes of existence and instead included things like The Gates of the Moon, Roothold and the Dismal Caverns, Cynosure and other non-Great Wheel locations?

 

[Voadam]

And if someone wasn't?

Generally I think most people would make accommodations for their group, particularly if they are friends.

I have a player who is arachnophobic to the point of reacting to hearing the word spider. Once I found that out I haven't since included spiders or spider monsters or spider gods directly in my games with him as a player, even though he was a player in my gothic horror campaign where I was trying to evoke some creepiness and dread among the players. None of us make Lolth worshippers or aranea or similar spider PC concepts in games he is in.