WotC WotC needs an Elon Musk

[Chaosmancer]

You can get it wrong a seventh time you like. It does not list the PLANES of the Great Wheel. It lists only the NAMES the Great Wheel uses for the planes that exist for all cosmologies.

The Great Wheel calls it Ysgard, The World Tree calls it Asgard, and The World Axis has a different name for it. The plane is the same for all three.

Let's see here... to quote the FR Wiki which covers multiple different editions of material, "The Heroic Domains of Ysgard,[12] also referred to as Gladsheim,[13] was the Great Wheel plane straddling the alignments of chaotic good and chaotic neutral."

Then is goes on "Some characteristics of this plane were ascribed to the World Tree cosmology planes of Arvandor,[15] Brightwater,[16] Gates of the Moon,[17] and Jotunheim[18] when that cosmology model became popular."

Huh, that's weird. It doesn't say that the World Tree called it Asgard, it says that the World Tree "ascribed the characteristics" (Which, by the way, implies these places weren't real planes, but just a misunderstanding of Ysgard) to four other planes of existence. Arvandor, Brightwater, The Gates of the Moon, and Jotunheim.

But, surely Asgard or Ysgard appear in the World Axis, right? Oh, wait... no. They don't. Arvandor does, Gates of the Moon does, but that's it.

And let us see what the 5e DMG says. On page 61 we get Ysgard. Arvandor doesn't exist, Brightwater doesn't exist, Gates of the Moon doesn't exist, Jotunheim doesn't exist.


So, let's make this a little cleaner and play a game. Here are the three models

Great Wheel: There is the plane of Ysgard, that is between Chaotic Good and Chaotic Neutral
World Tree: There are multiple planes, Arvandor, Brightwater, The Gates of the Moon, and Jotunheim attached to the Tree as various roots and branches
World Axis: There is the Astral Domain of Arvandor and the Astral Domain of The Gates of the Moon, they are unrelated.

And here is 5e's version. Ysgard, Alignment CG, CN

Which one of these does it look like? Does it look like all of them, or does it look exactly like one of them? And if the plane is the exact same for all of them, even though for two of the models, the plane doesn't exist and is actually many seperate places with entirely different rolls and feels... doesn't that mean that one model is true and the others aren't?

The bolded is not supported by the 5e DMG and is actually refuted by the 5e DMG. You seem to be going by older editions with that claim.

And that is because the 5e DMG uses the Great Wheel and does not present the other models. Thank you for proving my point, yet again. Now, can you just admit it?

Actually I do. I'm not arguing that it's a good thing. I'm simply telling you what the 5e DMG says. Were I ever to run Eberron(and I don't think I ever will), I'd use the 3e lore and cosmology, not the 5e one.

I know what the 5e DMG says. I am not ignorant of the problem I am pointing out. That's why I can point it out.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I don't see the difference as being especially relevant.

You can't see how a media that can be completely curated to include the responses and emotional tones proper to the situation can handle the situation better and more carefully than one that requires the people to not only be surprised by the situation, but to provide those responses instead of just consuming them?

It seems really obvious to me.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The Great Wheel does not have a "And there are no other full-sized planes anywhere ever" rule. I get that it's heavily implied to be a complete thing, and it would certainly be a notable discovery, but if the scholars of Sigil started running around the city screaming "they found another, they found another!" it wouldn't be against any rules. The Great Wheel changes over time as it is.

Has the Great Wheel ever changed the outer planes? Could it include an Outer Plane that has nothing to do with alignment?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Back in ‘92, you say? I think that was the year we saw a documentary on the Holocaust in History class.

Of course, in 2022 (30 years later), they probably wouldn’t have shown the video in class without a trigger warning and maybe would have requested the parents’ to sign a permission slip (for 10-year olds at least).

This is a good thing.

And, again, there is a difference between a game played between friends and a classroom teaching history. Especially given the fact that the Teacher is trying to educate and provide context, not just entertain.

 

[Maxperson]

Let's see here... to quote the FR Wiki which covers multiple different editions of material, "The Heroic Domains of Ysgard,[12] also referred to as Gladsheim,[13] was the Great Wheel plane straddling the alignments of chaotic good and chaotic neutral."

Then is goes on "Some characteristics of this plane were ascribed to the World Tree cosmology planes of Arvandor,[15] Brightwater,[16] Gates of the Moon,[17] and Jotunheim[18] when that cosmology model became popular."

Huh, that's weird. It doesn't say that the World Tree called it Asgard, it says that the World Tree "ascribed the characteristics" (Which, by the way, implies these places weren't real planes, but just a misunderstanding of Ysgard) to four other planes of existence. Arvandor, Brightwater, The Gates of the Moon, and Jotunheim.

But, surely Asgard or Ysgard appear in the World Axis, right? Oh, wait... no. They don't. Arvandor does, Gates of the Moon does, but that's it.

Can you tell me with absolute certainty that Shavarath isn't just a section of infinite Ysgard/Asgard where different factions are vying for control?

Or maybe it's Irian. No wait, that's explicitly the positive energy plane. Perhaps it's Mabar. No, that's explicitly the negative energy plane. Seems those two planes are in the World Axis after all.

And let us see what the 5e DMG says. On page 61 we get Ysgard. Arvandor doesn't exist, Brightwater doesn't exist, Gates of the Moon doesn't exist, Jotunheim doesn't exist.

You know that Arvandor isn't a plane, right? It's a layer of Arborea which is in the 5e DMG.

So, let's make this a little cleaner and play a game. Here are the three models

Great Wheel: There is the plane of Ysgard, that is between Chaotic Good and Chaotic Neutral
World Tree: There are multiple planes, Arvandor, Brightwater, The Gates of the Moon, and Jotunheim attached to the Tree as various roots and branches
World Axis: There is the Astral Domain of Arvandor and the Astral Domain of The Gates of the Moon, they are unrelated.

And here is 5e's version. Ysgard, Alignment CG, CN

Which one of these does it look like? Does it look like all of them, or does it look exactly like one of them? And if the plane is the exact same for all of them, even though for two of the models, the plane doesn't exist and is actually many seperate places with entirely different rolls and feels... doesn't that mean that one model is true and the others aren't?

No. It means that since planes are infinite, one plane can have multiple feels depending where on it you are. Ysgard, Asgard, and perhaps Shavarath can all be the same plane. Or you can make them all different places. That's up to the DM. The default, though, is for all cosmologies in 5e to be using the same planes, even if they have different names and imagery(Wheel, Tree, Axis, etc.).

I know what the 5e DMG says. I am not ignorant of the problem I am pointing out. That's why I can point it out.

I fully admit that you wanting these to be completely different planes and 5e using the same planes for all cosmologies is a problem for you that you can point out. So change it. Make them different planes.

 

[Faolyn]

The Great Wheel, on the other hand, is a closed cosmology. It doesn't allow for any outer planes other than the 17. Sure, you can have a demiplane in the Ethereal, or an alternate Prime, but not a fully-fledged plane. The Great Wheel is the result of box-checking, and when there are no more boxes to check there's no more room for expansion.

To be fair, though, each plane, and each layer of each plane, is infinite. Which means that you literally have infinite space to add as much stuff as you wanted to it. And as we saw when the Harmonium accidentally-on-purpose moved a layer from Arcadia into Mechanus, it's also fully possible to also add new layers. You want Mt. Celestia to become the Eight Heavens, or to turn Bytopia into Trytopia? There's precedent.

Now, if your goal is to create a plane that has absolutely nothing to do with alignment or does but it can't be pigeonholed--maybe it has both Good and Evil but you can't imagine sticking it in the Outlands--then yes, there's a major problem there. But I think that this possibility is going to be quite rare.

 

[Veltharis ap Rylix]

Now, if your goal is to create a plane that has absolutely nothing to do with alignment or does but it can't be pigeonholed--maybe it has both Good and Evil but you can't imagine sticking it in the Outlands--then yes, there's a major problem there. But I think that this possibility is going to be quite rare.

Alternatively: There are a handful of other planes that the Fraternity of Order likes to ignore and/or minimize as glorified demiplanes when mapping out the cosmology, because factoring them in them would break the Great Wheel model and they're too attached to its mathematical symmetry to see that it may not be fully accurate.

 

[Micah Sweet]

You can't see how a media that can be completely curated to include the responses and emotional tones proper to the situation can handle the situation better and more carefully than one that requires the people to not only be surprised by the situation, but to provide those responses instead of just consuming them?

It seems really obvious to me.

If your players understand the tone of the adventure, and that adult themes may be involved (and they absolutely should, through session 0), this problem goes away for me. Beyond that, a little trust from both sides is necessary just to have a decent game at all.

And all of this should be in the book, by the way.

 

[Micah Sweet]

And, again, there is a difference between a game played between friends and a classroom teaching history. Especially given the fact that the Teacher is trying to educate and provide context, not just entertain.

I try to educate and provide context while I DM all the time. I feel that's one of the DM's many hats.

 

[JEB]

Alternatively: There are a handful of other planes that the Fraternity of Order likes to ignore and/or minimize as glorified demiplanes when mapping out the cosmology, because factoring them in them would break the Great Wheel model and they're too attached to its mathematical symmetry to see that it may not be fully accurate.

Assuming we treat 1e through 3e as basically the same canon (Wizards says otherwise, but let's ignore that for the moment), the Plane of Shadow was previously "misidentified" as a demiplane...