D&D 5E The Gloves Are Off?

[Ruin Explorer]

Yes, I am assuming bad faith on the part of the player.

That's really the end of the story, as @Reynard pointed out.

Your "fair adjudication" doesn't appear to be anything but a pile of assumptions on your part, which you proceed to triple-down on lol, with no flexibility, no cooperation, and so on.

Also the "mention exact specifics OR DIE" as I've pointed out is the best possible way to turn 60-second interactions into 15-minute ones. Sometimes you kind of want that, but, not all the time, and you can signal when you do.

With a trap this fatal I would have asked the player exactly what they were doing when they described touching the chest at all.

 

[Voadam]

As a DM I generally do not require writing down articles of clothing or even generally buying minor stuff. That is generally handwave stuff and I am happy to go with whatever the player wants for their self image of their character. If I make an assumption and it conflicts with theirs, I will generally defer to theirs unless it contradicts something that they established before or it is something that seems unreasonable (jars with the setting or tone or context or whatever).

Normally I ask players at some point early on to describe their character and I will go off that. I don't necessarily expect a description of the wizard's robes, though that is definitely possible.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

As a DM I generally do not require writing down articles of clothing or even generally buying minor stuff. That is generally handwave stuff and I am happy to go with whatever the player wants for their self image of their character. If I make an assumption and it conflicts with theirs, I will generally defer to theirs unless it contradicts something that they established before or it is something that seems unreasonable (jars with the setting or tone or context or whatever).

Yeah, and sometimes the DM does have to say "No that's silly", but "wearing gloves whilst on an adventure" isn't that. As a player I once got a DM having to politely and slowly explain to me that my Conspiracy X character's "Black Ambulance" (black as in "covert" here) did not, in fact, have flashing lights and a siren, because that would really, just very much undermine the "black" part of it, even if they were "pop-up" lights and so on. I was like ohhhhhhh yeah okay fair.

 

[tetrasodium]

In what way?


No, that is the point of saves and assigning the DC. If a poison is so potent as to instantly kill, either the DC and/or the damage would need to be high enough to have that be the case most of the time.


Sure, again that is the point of saves.

You could go many routes IMO depending on how the DM wants the nature of the poison to work.

1. The PC makes a Wisdom (Perception) check to notice the almost imperceptible poison. The DC should be sufficiently high, at least 20.
2. Any other PCs around the chest could also make a check as well, perhaps warning the first PC before the chest is touched.
3. Perhaps a DEX save for the PC to pull back their hand before touching it?
4. Assuming you actually touched the chest at this point, it is a CON save because it can be resisted. As I said in my prior post, CON is just one part of it, proficiency (i.e. skill, experience, etc.) is also a part, but unless the DC is low enough and the bonuses high enough, luck is the biggest factor.

For example, a couple weeks ago I was driving in bad weather (snow, low visibility, icy roads) but the snow plows were out, sanding the roads, etc. so the conditions weren't as bad as they otherwise would be. The two factors effectively cancelled out the disadvantage (bad roads) and advantage (plowing/sanding), so overall any Dexterity (Drive) check I make would be normal.

Now, other people were driving more slowly, and at one point I moved to pass another vehicle. As I rounded the curve of the highway, suddenly there was a truck along the roadside, half in my lane! I had made my check, driving safely, but with this I had to react, and so it would be a DEX save. My reaction speed is good, above average, so because of that in "making my save" it plays a part, but luck is also there.

I was lucky I wasn't looking down at my speed, lucky I wasn't changing my music, lucky the car I was passing slowed down enough to allow me to avoid the truck by partially going into their lane. Any one of these factors (and many many more) could have contributed to my failing the DEX save.

In the poison example, there are many factors still: how much poison is needed to kill instantly, is it always lethal (high DC, so possible to not be killed) or can a good constitution give you a chance (however small) of surviving it, is it possible to build up a resistance, etc.

Many creatures' biology makes them more or less affected, so how does that play into it?

So, a saving throw is partially skill, ability, and luck each. If you have a high enough skill and ability, you can always save because the DC is low enough that even a 1 makes it. Likewise, it can be high enough that regardless of skill and ability, even a 20 fails. So, luck isn't always a factor, but only those times when success or failure is automatic.

on the simultaneous "too specific, and not specific enough" saves look at rock paper scissors compared to the pointless memeworthy version with extra choices that don't really matter. One is a "game" played for thousands of years in place of dice or coinflips, the other is a confusing mess trying to add a few pointless options that provide an illusion of depth to what is still a one dimensional game of chance.

Spoiler: 2e* had 5 saves

Save vs. Paralyzation, Poison, and Death Magic: This is
used whenever a character is affected by a paralyzing attack
(regardless of source), poison (of any strength), or certain
spells and magical items that otherwise kill the character out-
right (as listed in their descriptions). This saving throw can
also be used in situations in which exceptional force of will or
physical fortitude are needed.
Save vs. Rod, Staff, or Wand: As its name implies, this is
used whenever a character is affected by the powers of a rod,
staff, or wand, provided another save of higher priority isn’t
called for. This saving throw is sometimes specified for situa-
tions in which a character faces a magical attack from an
unusual source.
Save vs. Petrification or Polymorph: This is used any
time a character is turned to stone (petrified) or polymorphed
by a monster, spell, or magical item (other than a wand). It
can also be used when the character must withstand some
massive physical alteration of his entire body.
Save vs. Breath Weapon: A character uses this save
when facing monsters with breath weapons, particularly the
powerful blast of a dragon. This save can also be used in
situations where a combination of physical stamina and Dex-
terity are critical factors in survival.
Save vs. Spell: This is used whenever a character attempts
to resist the effects of a magical attack, either by a spellcaster
or from a magical item, provided no other type of saving
throw is specified. This save can also be used to resist an
attack that defies any other classification.

They were reasonably specific & viscerally different. 3.x decided that five was overly granular with too much dithering whebever an edge case came up & scaled that back

Spoiler: There were three in 3.x

Reflex saving throws, for avoiding fireballs and other attacks that you can escape by moving quickly.
Fortitude saving throws, for resisting poison and similar threats.
Will saving throws (for negating the effect of charm person and other spells).

Those were good solid broad brush catchalls that worked well for deciding if a creature succeeds or fails against this thing & they did it with enough distinction between their own niche to avoid arguments dithering over which applies. For edge cases there were specific skills like concentration spot/listen/hide/move silent ac/touchac & so on with all of those being specific things that are hard to say they should be transposed for reasons that totally aren't just because the creature making the roll has a better bonus to one.

5e splits the baby & takes the worst of all three by having six broad catchall saves that fail at being clear catchalls while also failing at being specific enough to be the clear choice for edge cases,

*I'm omitting 1e because I'm not sure if it's different & by how much if so

 

[iserith]

So from the setup we don't know if they were fiddling with mechanisms on the chest or just lifting a chest lid open.

Taking gloves off to fiddle with mechanisms can be reasonable. Not taking gloves off to lift the lid of a chest is also reasonable.

All we have here is the DM assumes the PC is not wearing gloves and narrates as such, and the PC interrupts to ask about gloves as part of their traveller's clothes that they are wearing. Which the PHB does not define to that level of detail.

That's the problem in a nutshell - both parties are assuming, perhaps reasonably so and in good faith, and the rules of the game aren't helping support either position.

Now, if we add gloves to the equipment list, how should that be implemented? If they protect you from contact poisons (which the rules say require exposed skin), do they have some kind of downside? Otherwise everyone wears gloves by default. Which may be fine, or it may be pointless and boring. Also, how much do we let the tail wag the dog here?

 

[Swarmkeeper]

on the simultaneous "too specific, and not specific enough" saves look at rock paper scissors compared to the pointless memeworthy version with extra choices that don't really matter. One is a "game" played for thousands of years in place of dice or coinflips, the other is a confusing mess trying to add a few pointless options that provide an illusion of depth to what is still a one dimensional game of chance.

Ah, but you have glossed over the most pertinent point in the whole video. The part when Sheldon says:

"I'd smack you with a glove, but just last week I packed away my winter things"

Yeah, we need to know what season it is in the OP scenario...

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Also, how much do we let the tail wag the dog here?

What does that mean in this context though?

Which may be fine, or it may be pointless and boring.

More pointless and boring than contact poison? Contact poison is one of the top eye-roll-inducing traps in D&D, because it's not interesting, it's not exciting, it's not cool, and it's fundamentally implausible as a long-term trap (c.f. the main real case of contact poison being used and the absolute havoc it caused - the Salisbury poisonings - and was trivially defeated by gloves). It's notable that when it appears in fiction it tends to be used very carefully, not slathered over entire chests or the like. It's right up there with nigh-impossible-to-disarm or very easily triggered traps that are on a frequently-travelled path and supposedly have been there for years.

 

[iserith]

What does that mean in this context though?

Do we want to add to the equipment list, including potential trade-offs, just because contact poison might show up on some chest somewhere?

 

[Voadam]

Now, if we add gloves to the equipment list, how should that be implemented? If they protect you from contact poisons (which the rules say require exposed skin), do they have some kind of downside? Otherwise everyone wears gloves by default. Which may be fine, or it may be pointless and boring. Also, how much do we let the tail wag the dog here?

People vary and the incentives here vary.

Not everyone will respond the same way.

I am fine with my starting equipment list as a paladin being chain mail, battle axe, shield. Basics to get going and not working every possible equipment angle for adventuring.

Some will make a 1e or B/X magic user who spends a significant amount of their starting gold and ends up looking like this.

If gloves were on the equipment list it would not really matter to me as a DM. I would still go with "what is your character wearing?" and generally go with what they say versus caring about what is written on the sheet. It is something I prefer to be generally open ended for their conceptual self image instead of options off a list.

I don't want to spend player and DM time itemizing and purchasing clothing.

 

[JiffyPopTart]

One where if it's cold, I put on cold weather clothing and not clothing to just travel in. It seems like you want Traveler's Clothing to also be Cold Weather Clothing AND Riding Clothing AND... These are different kinds of outfits.

Gloves are also a work tool. I use gloves at work when I am shipping. They prevent paper cuts and keep my hands from getting chapped and dried out. I use them in all seasons. I am able to use gloved fingers to type, grab tape off a roll, and peel stickers off their backing.

Do adventurers consider adventuring to be work and do they bring the tools for the job if it is?