D&D 5E The Gloves Are Off?

[Maxperson]

It doesn't make sense a tiny shield helps a tiny creature not get splattered by a Fire Giants 50lb maul but at some point the rules are the rules and you just have to go with it.

Yep. If you started doing damage according to the mass of monsters, PCs would splat very quickly against most things.

DM: "The gargantuan dragon lands on Grog. Grog takes 486,233 points of damage."
Player: "He only has 112. I'm a sad panda."

 

[Micah Sweet]

It doesn't make sense a tiny shield helps a tiny creature not get splattered by a Fire Giants 50lb maul but at some point the rules are the rules and you just have to go with it.

That point definitely rests in a different place for different people.

 

[Lanefan]

Can’t there be more than one version? Or can’t one person do it more quickly than another?

If one person finds a way to do it quicker than another, isn't it simply inevitable that everyone will eventually learn that quicker way and that'll become the version in universal use henceforth? (and, unless the spell is quite new to the setting, that process will long since have been done, to the point where each spell is already running on its "best" version)

Magic breaks the rules… that’s what it does.

Magic breaks the rules...and magic also runs by extremely strict rules. That's what spellbooks are for - they detail the precise instructions that tell a caster to do exact motions A and B while saying exact words X, Y, and Z if you want to get the expected result.

Now, in fairness the WotC editions completely handwave this stuff. Not at all coincidentally, 3e casters got right out of hand; 5e tries to solve it by nerfing spells rather than imposing true limits on the casting of them.

 

[Lanefan]

If you are going to insist that all spells take the exact same amount of time to cast, then yeah, you're always going to have a problem with this rule.

Not all spells, just the same spell. A counterspell always takes as long as another counterspell. A fireball always takes as long as another fireball.

I have no problem at all with different spells taking different amoounts of time to cast; in fact I'd really like to see a return to actual casting times for spells a la 0-1-2e.

And you gotta go with what works for you. At my table, I ruled that a character's spiritual hammer was dispelled when he went unconscious. RAW is that the hammer would stay out regardless, but it just didn't make sense to me. I feel just fine about overriding the rule.

Fair. Checking my own write-up I see I need to put something like that in, so thanks for that. I don't think I'd have it go away completely unless the caster died; if unconscious or asleep etc. the "hammer" would just invisibly sit there, doing nothing.

 

[Swarmkeeper]

If one person finds a way to do it quicker than another, isn't it simply inevitable that everyone will eventually learn that quicker way and that'll become the version in universal use henceforth? (and, unless the spell is quite new to the setting, that process will long since have been done, to the point where each spell is already running on its "best" version)

Real World Logic =/= Fantasy Fictional Logic?

Magic breaks the rules...and magic also runs by extremely strict rules. That's what spellbooks are for - they detail the precise instructions that tell a caster to do exact motions A and B while saying exact words X, Y, and Z if you want to get the expected result.

Are they though? Only Wizards use spellbooks all the time. All other casters do not.


What a tangent though, eh? I guess someone upthread said the player indicating that their PC was wearing gloves was like a reaction spell and here we are.


So… back to the OP… since part of my role as DM is being a fan of the PCs, if the player honestly believes their PC has gloves then I'm going to riff off that for the scene. Clearly, IMO, this is an example of a minor misunderstanding at the table. As DM, I'm there to present meaningful challenges and adjudicate fairly, the players are there to explore the fiction via their PCs, and we're all there to have a fun time and create an exciting, memorable story. The more time I, as DM, spend worrying about the existence of gloves, the less I'm actually focusing on fulfilling my role in the game.

 

[Digdude]

Not all spells, just the same spell. A counterspell always takes as long as another counterspell. A fireball always takes as long as another fireball.

I have no problem at all with different spells taking different amoounts of time to cast; in fact I'd really like to see a return to actual casting times for spells a la 0-1-2e.

Fair. Checking my own write-up I see I need to put something like that in, so thanks for that. I don't think I'd have it go away completely unless the caster died; if unconscious or asleep etc. the "hammer" would just invisibly sit there, doing nothing.

The company owns MTG. Do we really want to see instants, interupts, and sorcery and then have to figure out stacks and whatnot? Not me.

 

[Voadam]

The snag I keep hitting here is the idea of a counterspell being quicker than itself. That's just a non-starter for me.

Even better, each counterspell is just an instant to cast so they are the same casting time and casting happens sequentially, but each only resolves just before the final component of the spell it is countering. This means they cast sequentially but resolve to counter in reverse order.

Narratively this would be an instant for counterspell to begin, a really quick casting, but a little time for the counterspell to attune to the blocked spell and only monkey wrench its final or penultimate component to block the target from actually coming into effect the instant before it actually would.

This would allow multiple counterspells to all be cast sequentially and block the completion of the one directly before them (if they are still able to counter when they get to their own resolution). They are just each trying to stop the final component of the one cast before them. If any are countered then that specific spell is countered, each of the rest would continue unless they are also countered. Each goes sequentially in normal time with the same narrative casting time, but it matches the mechanics of interrupting an interrupt.

So fireball begins casting, counterspell 1 is a reaction after the fireball begins but before fireball goes into effect. Counterspell 2 is a reaction to counterspell 1 and begins after counterspell 1 but before counterspell 1 goes into effect at just before the completion of the fireball. Counterspell 2 goes into effect right before counterspell 1 goes into effect and counters it, so fireball is not countered and completes.

Taa Daa!

 

[tetrasodium]

The company owns MTG. Do we really want to see instants, interupts, and sorcery and then have to figure out stacks and whatnot? Not me.

That problem exists because reaction abilities that act as instant interrupts to create the same problem. The difference in that between 5e & MTG though is that anyone can see it in MTG. If we use the fireside chat 80:20 estimate as a reliable ballpark for player:GM in 5e the situation is one where 20% of 5e participants get hit by them regularly while the remaining 80% can complain about adversarial & hostile GM'ing if they are ever subjected to it with any regularity. The way d&d's/ttrpg's social contract structure this as a toxically asymmetric thing makes it an even bigger problem for d&d than in MTG.

If these abilities were designed so they adhered to the step1/2/3 playloop the gloves example in the OP would have been an immediately unsupported retcon because the player tried to invoke them as a reaction retcon in step3 rather than proactively ensuring they would protect the PC during step2 expecting the standard set by things like shield parry uncanny dodge & counterspell to support the retcon. The fact that we are on page40 highlights just how far 5e goes to shackle the GM in ways that provide cover for affected players to claim unreasonable rulings are being made if the GM does not rule in their favor at all times.

 

[Bill Zebub]

If I can accept that magic exists in a world, I can accept that when people try to manipulate it funny perturbations happen in time. Or that people who learn how to manipulate it find themselves bound by time slightly differently than the rest of us.

Especially when accepting that also means that game rules work out.

 

[FrogReaver]

If one person finds a way to do it quicker than another, isn't it simply inevitable that everyone will eventually learn that quicker way and that'll become the version in universal use henceforth?

No. Real world examples constantly refute this.