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D&D 5E The Gloves Are Off?

Sure, but that doesn't make it simultaneous, because the rigid structure is always going to be present in combat regardless of what I do. Short of completely re-writing how combat works anyway.
What's the "it" here that isn't simultaneous? Yes, the meta-fiction turn-by-turn action resolutions that the players are engaging in aren't simultaneous. But the characters' actions in imagined fiction can be. (That's why we can imagine someone ducking behind a pillar when we resolve a saving throw outside of their own turn and why opportunity attacks can kill an enemy before it leaves one's reach.)

Regarding counterspell, I've never held tight to the idea that every casting of a certain spell must take the same amount of time. I just imagine that counterspell is a particularly quick and easy spell to counter.
 

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What's the "it" here that isn't simultaneous?
The combat. In a simultaneous combat each person involved would get to move say 5 feet, then note where everyone else that they can see if moving and adjust if they want to. So the wizard might have been casting firebolt on one of the trolls, but then sees that the paladin who is moving towards a goblin has 3 more reacting to him and heading to intercept. He then shifts his movement a bit to get out of range of the one he was going to cast on and starts to cast fireball at the group that's forming. The troll shaman seeing the wizard shift attention and start casting on the group then decides to counterspell. Maybe the rogue tries to intercept one of the trolls and another of the 3 pivots so now 2 are heading for the rogue and 2 for the paladin.

You can't get that with turn based combat. Even if you wait for everything to be done and construct some sort of simultaneous narrative, the actual combat will not have been simultaneous. It's impossible to achieve with 5e's turn based system. No amount of imagination can change that fact.
Regarding counterspell, I've never held tight to the idea that every casting of a certain spell must take the same amount of time. I just imagine that counterspell is a particularly quick and easy spell to counter.
I'm banning it more because it's a fun sucker. If they counterspell one of my creatures, it's not fun for me. If I counterspell the wizard and he wastes an important slot, it's not fun for him. It's more fun to let the spells fly! And when you have 4 counterspells all going off in the same round(had it more than once), it's a headache.
 
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What is it with folks claiming that counterspell breaks the fiction? You yourself write that "everyone would be moving and reacting to one another in the same moments." Exactly. Counterspell is literally a reaction.
Indeed, it's a reaction. No disagreement there. It's a reaction to something that takes more time to do than does the countering spell or effect.

It's when you a) allow reactions to reactions and b) resolve those reactions (which in theory all occur at the same "speed" in 5e as it doesn't break it down any further than "reaction speed") in LIFO order that things go haywire.

Part a) is fine on its own but only if those reactions are resolved in FIFO - first in first out - order.

Now if 5e were to break it down further and put some sort of speed ratings on each type of reaction then that would set the resolution order; but still wouldn't solve the paradox of reaction A to someone else's the same reaction A always taking less time than the initial person's reaction A to whatever trigger is being reacted to.
 

For what it's worth, I don't care about initiative beats as they once existed long ago but the playloop is spelled out on two pages in the PHB (pages 6 &181) so it takes a special kind of design failure to open the door for step3 "muh gloves" retcons with a bunch of step3 retcon reaction abilities that encourage players to sit like lumps waiting to be mugged by story.
I'm not doubting that that's your experience, but mine is very different. I see players sitting like lumps when they're waiting between turns without options to react to what's going on outside of the initiative order. The players who have characters with options for reactions are more engaged through the entire combat.
 

You can't get that with turn based combat. Even if you wait for everything to be done and construct some sort of simultaneous narrative, the actual combat will not have been simultaneous. It's impossible to achieve with 5e's turn based system. No amount of imagination can change that fact.
There is no actual combat. I know you know that, and I'm not being pedantic, but I just don't know what you mean.


I'm banning it more because it's a fun sucker. If they counterspell one of my creatures, it's not fun for me. If I counterspell the wizard and he wastes an important slot, it's not fun for him. It's more fun to let the spells fly! And when you have 4 counterspells all going off in the same round(had it more than once), it's a headache.
Fair enough!
 

There is no actual combat. I know you know that, and I'm not being pedantic, but I just don't know what you mean.
I'm not sure how else to explain it other than at a high level. If you have 12 combatants in a simultaneous combat, all 12 will be able to react to one another, shifting direction and attacks as the battle unfolds. With turn based combat you can't do that, so no matter how you might imagine it after the fact, it still was not at any point truly simultaneous.
 

It's a conceit necessary to make 5e Combat work.

PHB p 189: A typical combat encounter is a clash between two sides, a flurry of weapon swings, feints, parries, footwork, and spellcasting. The game organizes the chaos of combat into a cycle of rounds and turns. A round represents about 6 seconds in the game world. During a round, each participant in a battle takes a turn. The order of turns is determined at the beginning of a combat encounter, when everyone rolls initiative. Once everyone has taken a turn, the fight continues to the next round if neither side has defeated the other.

Could you explain how simultaneous combat actions work in your game? It has been decades since I played 1e.
Do players declare what they are doing up front, DM declares what the NPCs/monsters are doing, and then the DM resolves everything at once?
Our initiative system (homebrew) works fairly simply. Everyone rolls an independent d6 at the start of the round for each action they have in that round (thus e.g. a warrior using two weapons would roll a separate d6 for each one to show when those attacks occur). You usually don't have to declare what you're doing until your init comes up unless it involves significant movement.

Then, I-as-DM go round the table and ask if there's any sixes. Two sixes, OK. Both those players take care of whatever they're doing on a six, and we sort it. Next, I-as-DM see if the opponents have any sixes, oh look, I have a six - and even though one of the players' six-init actions finished off that foe it still gets to act on its six because it's simultaneous in the fiction. I take care of resolving that six, then we move on to fives, repeat the process, and so on down to ones. For the next round, all initiatives are rolled again.

If you're casting a spell you start on your rolled initiative then the spell's casting time (always listed in segments, of which there's 6 per round corresponding to the pips on a d6) determines when you resolve. Thus, if you roll a 5 and start a 3-segment spell you resolve on a 2; if instead you rolled a 1 for init your spell won't resolve until 4 of next round.

If two spells are resolving on the same segment they both resolve, unless one caster is targeting the other. In such cases I often do need to determine which caster was that split-second faster as the other caster's spell might be interrupted just as it's about to resolve.

And my game does have counterspell as a spell, one of the very few with a 0-segment casting time. But, there's also a hard rule that says another 0-segment spell cannot be countered as it is too fast (in other words, FIFO resolution), meaning you can't counter someone else's Counterspell, Command, Featherfall, or other 0-segment spell.

It's a bit cumbersome if you're new to it but goes pretty fast once you know the ropes.
Incidentally, spells like shield and counterspell do allow for "two or more things happening at the same time in the fiction", as you put it. Yet you don't seem to like those. Why?
I don't mind those at all in principle. What I very much dislike is how 5e allows them to resolve on a LIFO basis.
 

I'm not sure how else to explain it other than at a high level. If you have 12 combatants in a simultaneous combat, all 12 will be able to react to one another, shifting direction and attacks as the battle unfolds. With turn based combat you can't do that, so no matter how you might imagine it after the fact, it still was not at any point truly simultaneous.
No, no, I get that. But there is no "it" that is "truly" not simultaneous. There's the gameplay, which is clearly not simultaneous, and there is the imagined fiction, which can be. You say that imagination is unable to overcome that. I disagree strongly, but there's no grounds to argue it here.

Cheers!
 

What's the "it" here that isn't simultaneous? Yes, the meta-fiction turn-by-turn action resolutions that the players are engaging in aren't simultaneous. But the characters' actions in imagined fiction can be.
How often in your game does a warrior put a swing into a foe, that an adjacent warrior just finished off, because they'd already committed to attacking that foe?

Rarely if ever, I'd bet - if warrior A finishes off Orc #6 on init 15 then warrior B is sure as shootin' gonna turn her attention to Orc #4 just behind it.

But if those two warriors could both somehow be on init 15 they'd probably both attack Orc #6, perhaps leading to overkilling it but leaving Orc #4 unopposed for the moment. I see this all the time - multiple attackers swinging simultaneously at the same target and all hitting, with each one doing more than enough damage on its own to kill it.

Strictly non-simultaneous turn-based resolution allows far more precise tactical choices than would ever be possible in reality.
Regarding counterspell, I've never held tight to the idea that every casting of a certain spell must take the same amount of time. I just imagine that counterspell is a particularly quick and easy spell to counter.
Why should the second counterspell always be faster than the first, though?
 

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