Ryan Dancey -- Hasbro Cannot Deauthorize OGL

I reached out to the architect of the original Open Gaming License, former VP of Wizard of the Coast, Ryan Dancey, and asked his opinion about the current plan by WotC to 'deauthorize' the current OGL in favour of a new one.

He responded as follows:

Yeah my public opinion is that Hasbro does not have the power to deauthorize a version of the OGL. If that had been a power that we wanted to reserve for Hasbro, we would have enumerated it in the license. I am on record numerous places in email and blogs and interviews saying that the license could never be revoked.

Ryan also maintains the Open Gaming Foundation.

As has been noted previously, even WotC in its own OGL FAQ did not believe at the time that the licence could be revoked.

7. Can't Wizards of the Coast change the License in a way that I wouldn't like?

Yes, it could. However, the License already defines what will happen to content that has been previously distributed using an earlier version, in Section 9. As a result, even if Wizards made a change you disagreed with, you could continue to use an earlier, acceptable version at your option. In other words, there's no reason for Wizards to ever make a change that the community of people using the Open Gaming License would object to, because the community would just ignore the change anyway.

​

 

[Gilwen]

can't wait to see the full final terms are released. I do think the only way to "revoke" the OGL is for the new license to include a poison pill that makes you choose to leave the OGL 1/1a behind in order to agree to the new terms in the new license to gain access to the updated material. If what we've been seeing is accurate the new license is closer to a GSL/D20 system license combo than an open license. Thanks to all that have been commenting across all of these discussions, I've been learning a lot.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

This is the big issue facing anyone who wants to make a deal with WotC-- even just implying that the OGL can be revoked demonstrates WotC is now a bad-faith actor, and cannot be trusted. It's the scorpion telling the frog "Don't worry, I won't sting you again."

I'm not sure 22 years of open content is 'bad faith'

 

[Branduil]

I'm not sure 22 years of open content is 'bad faith'

I think you misread my post.

 

[Henadic Theologian]

Perpetual does.

per·pet·u·al
/pərˈpeCH(əw)əl/
See definitions in:
All
Finance
Horticulture
adjective

1. 1.
   never ending or changing.
   "deep caves in perpetual darkness"
   
   
   

 

[payn]

I mean, the claim it sold better than 3.x came from WotC, who I think might know how their products sold....

Regardless though, if we're talking about "What we know", then I know for a fact Amazon's storefront constantly had 4E products as a higher seller than any Pathfinder products, until we hit tail end of Essentials when Pathfinder overtook it.

What I also know is 4E and Paizo products were both pretty dry on the ground in Australia, but I don't think that's telling either way and just local stores being local stores

Nobody ever talks about the Paizo online store and direct sales of the time...

 

[Steel_Wind]

I think this is going to be a lot less about the publishers, and more about the VTT space.

Let me explain:

• Everything I'm seeing out of Wotc sounds a lot like them getting on what is lovingly called the "Live Services" bandwagon. I say lovingly due to game publishers seeming to love making live services out of anything that used to be called a "game".
• The reason this is bad, is due to the fact the main goal of turning D&D into a "live service", is to monetize it. Alot. In every darn way they can.
• This means getting people into subscriptions, probably combined with microtransactions. Don't laugh. Look at magic the gathering, it's pretty much the posterchild for loot boxes, loooong before they were a thing in computer games.
• In order to do the above, they need to control the market. That means getting rid of competition. Other VTT softwares.
• Easiest way to do that is to choke off the published content that the 3rd parties can post to those tools when related to D&D. If a publisher cannot post software content based on D&D, then they can't add their material to VTT other than one run by Wotc.
• Profit!

Now, can I prove this is the way it's going? Nope. But I've been working in the game industry (computer/console/mobile) for over a decade now, and this is the pattern I've seen over and over. If they are NOT going that way with the patterns I've seen, I simply have no idea what they are doing.

I mean, really. You better hope I'm wrong.

You might be right.

I don't know if VTT licensing is what is motivating them now -- but I freely admit that it is a distinct possibility. I only play via VTT and have for more than a decade. I was an early-adopter and felt like a lonely evangelist for a long time in the 20-teens. When, precisely, that changed is hard to put my finger on -- but it was before the pandemic. 2018, probably? Sometime around then. The pandemic certainly changed habits and I don't think they are ever going back -- but the trend was visible long before that point - the pandemic just pushed it over the edge, that's all.

So you might be right about that.

From a Hasbro exec's position, I would personally take great umbrage at Tactical Adventures and Solasta under the OGL. It hasn't exactly been a smash hit -- but Solasta is a game that if I were at WotC, I would see that as using MY DAMN IP FOR FREE -- and I would not be okay with that if I were at WotC. That would move the needle, for me. To be clear, I am not saying the publisher of Solasta has done anything legally wrong (great game!) but in terms of an emotional, visceral reaction? That would be a stone in my shoe if I were an exec at WotC/Hasbro, no doubt about that.

I don't know if Foundry VTT creates the same feeling -- and I am certainly of the view that it should not engender grievances at WotC if it does. Foundry VTT seems like it's been a bottle of nitro in the tank of DDB. It's not as if a good chunk of those Foundry sales have no beneficial effect on WotC revenue -- they surely do -- and more than any royalty on a one-time $50 purchase, too. I have spent ... more than $300 this year on DDB - solely because of Foundry VTT. That's a fair bit of coin in WotC's pockets at a marginal cost to them of SFA.

But in terms of product positioning going forward? You may well be right. We will see soon enough, I guess.

 

[Branduil]

This is the big issue facing anyone who wants to make a deal with WotC-- even just implying that the OGL can be revoked demonstrates WotC is now a bad-faith actor, and cannot be trusted. It's the scorpion telling the frog "Don't worry, I won't sting you again."

Actually, now that I think about it, this is being too fair to nuWotC-- given the proposed rule in the new "OGL" where they can revoke your license at any time, it's more like they're saying "Oh yeah, I can sting you again at any time if I want, but don't worry, you're safe as long as you do exactly what I tell you."

Or, in other words "That's a nice TTRPG product you have there. It would be a shame if something happened to it."

 

[FoolishFrost]

per·pet·u·al
/pərˈpeCH(əw)əl/
See definitions in:
All
Finance
Horticulture
adjective

1. 1.
   never ending or changing.
   "deep caves in perpetual darkness"
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   Similar:
   everlasting
   
   
   never-ending
   
   
   eternal
   
   
   permanent
   
   
   unending
   
   
   endless
   
   
   without end
   
   
   lasting
   
   
   long-lasting
   
   
   constant
   
   
   abiding
   
   
   enduring
   
   
   perennial
   
   
   timeless
   
   
   ageless
   
   
   deathless
   
   
   undying
   
   
   immortal
   
   
   unfailing
   
   
   unchanging
   
   
   never-changing
   
   
   changeless
   
   
   unvarying
   
   
   unfading
   
   
   invariable
   
   
   immutable
   
   
   indissoluble
   
   
   indestructible
   
   
   imperishable
   
   
   sempiternal
   
   
   perdurable
   
   
   uninterrupted
   
   
   continuous
   
   
   unremitting
   
   
   unceasing
   
   
   persistent
   
   
   unbroken
   
   
   
   Opposite:
   transitory
   
   
   temporary
   
   
   intermittent
   
   
2. 2.
   occurring repeatedly; so frequent as to seem endless and uninterrupted.
   "their perpetual money worries"
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   Similar:
   interminable
   
   incessant
   
   ceaseless
   
   endless
   
   without respite
   relentless
   
   unrelenting
   
   persistent
   
   frequent
   
   continual
   
   continuous
   
   nonstop
   
   never-ending
   
   recurrent
   
   repeated
   
   unremitting
   
   sustained
   
   round-the-clock
   
   always-on
   
   habitual
   
   chronic
   
   unabating
   
   eternal
   
   
   
   

Please review Here: Hello, I am lawyer with a PSA: almost everyone is wrong about the OGL and SRD. Clearing up confusion.

Seems a lawyer says the legal definition of "perpetual" dos not mean the same as the dictionary. Seems he might be right, but I'm not enough of a legal expert to be sure.

 

[MGibster]

I was a bit surprised when the OGL was originally released so many years ago; I just couldn't wrap my head around how it could possibly be good for WotC. While it led to a glut of bad games/products, it provide publishers with an opportunity to produce a lot of very good games, many of which are sadly no longer in production. From my point of view, it always looked like WotC made it easier for other publishers to compete directly against them.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Nobody ever talks about the Paizo online store and direct sales of the time...

it's part of the big shrug of "nobody can be sure" becuse you would need to take full game store data (and my understanding is that IVC isn't all stores) amazon/online orders the sub for 4e and the sub for PF... and guess who isn't shareing... both companies.