We got an official leak of One D&D OGL 1.1! Watch Our Discussion And Reactions!

[pemerton]

Good search-fu there! I see myself from 2014 just below Marshall. I don't think my opinion has changed since 2014.

I noticed I got a friendly mention in your 2014 post! I remember our conversation about OSRIC gnolls.

 

[Alzrius]

IME OSR D&D supports 5e D&D.

I've seen that also. It's why "O5R" is a thing.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The Hadozee is a good example, though. Even if they didn't spot it, as soon as someone did(and someone always will), then leapt into action and changed it. They changed orcs, Vistani and other things as well. I don't see why they wouldn't leap into action against a 3rd party once someone told them about the racism.

I mean, I don't agree that they "leapt into action" "as soon as someone [spotted it]". It'd been discussed at some length for some time and had got to the point where people were generally thinking "I guess WotC doesn't care" (and indeed a lot of people were suggesting they shouldn't care!) before WotC even acknowledged the issue. Once they did, they did a decent job. It helps that it was anti-Black racism, which is on the sort of racism that US corporations are better at at least recognising (even if they often perpetuate it).

But it's a good example because it's a case of "the squeaky wheel gets the grease". That wheel was squeaking very loudly, and it was a WotC product.

With 3PPs, it's going to be a lot more complicated, because far less people are going to see any given product, and WotC's thing says "blatant racism", which is theoretically a pretty high bar. I'm not even sure the Hadozee would have reached that, though personally I think the minstrelsy stuff did take it there.

And my experience with corporations is that they're somewhat loathe to publicly call others "racists" (for obvious reasons, I hope). So unless a book is staggeringly obviously racism (i.e. "blatant racism"), they're probably not going to do anything about it. If it's just trading in stereotypes or unfortunate implications/language (which is kind of where the Vistani and Orcs were), I'm skeptical that they'll do anything. Maybe that's fine, but I think it means the whole commitment is a bit questionable. Further, it's quite likely more non-US forms of racism will go ignored because it doesn't immediately make sense, and US corporations and frankly American society in general, has an amazing history of not recognising anti-Native American racism. So I'm pretty skeptical about how that's going to actually work out. And I'm not saying it's not hard - it is! But that just means it's less likely to work out!

On the flip side, corporations have an equally long history, especially US ones, of freaking out about anything that people are telling them is "sexual". They freak out way more about that, than anything but the most severe racism or the like. And LGBTQ+ people are the main target of this. A significant minority of US society suggests merely being LGBTQ+ is a "sexual" thing - that's obviously hardly worth discussing it's such a given. Further there are organised groups actively seeking out LGBTQ+ material to criticise on these grounds. So I believe any LGBTQ+ work is going to get a lot of complaints made directly to WotC about it on those grounds. Those complaints may well not appear on social media, which will make it harder for people to say "That's unwarranted", and I think it's highly likely WotC will burn a few LGBTQ+ creators before realizing they're essentially being played. If they even realize that. There's also a lower bar for calling something "sexual" than calling something "racist", at least for corporations. I think that's wrong, but it's how it seems to work.

So hopefully you'll forgive my rather strong skepticism that this commitment is anything but a commitment to protect their brand, and my belief that it's unlikely to be consistent, fair, or well-handled.

 

[Maxperson]

I mean, I don't agree that they "leapt into action" "as soon as someone [spotted it]". It'd been discussed at some length for some time and had got to the point where people were generally thinking "I guess WotC doesn't care" (and indeed a lot of people were suggesting they shouldn't care!) before WotC even acknowledged the issue. Once they did, they did a decent job. It helps that it was anti-Black racism, which is on the sort of racism that US corporations are better at at least recognising (even if they often perpetuate it).

I mean, their announcement came about 2 weeks after the release of the product. It takes some time for it to be spotted and brought up. Let's say a week. Then a week for a corporation to hear about it, meet about it, come to a decision and then announce it is lightning fast.

Release date: 8-16-22
Announcement: 9-2-22

I understand about U.S. corporations being hesitant historically to call out racism, but WotC doesn't seem to be shy about confronting it and they're getting much quicker.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I mean, their announcement came about 2 weeks after the release of the product. It takes some time for it to be spotted and brought up. Let's say a week. Then a week for a corporation to hear about it, meet about it, come to a decision and then announce it is lightning fast.

Release date: 8-16-22
Announcement: 9-2-22

It was spotted either immediately on release, or perhaps even in printed copies that got out early. It didn't take "some time" for it to be spotted. So at a minimum we're talking the full two weeks.

But if you consider that lightning fast, cool I guess.

 

[Maxperson]

It was spotted either immediately on release, or perhaps even in printed copies that got out early. It didn't take "some time" for it to be spotted. So at a minimum we're talking the full two weeks.

But if you consider that lightning fast, cool I guess.

For a corporation? There are multiple levels that have to hear about it, meet about it(with very busy schedules), then come to a decision and arrange for it to be announced.

My wife is in corporate upper management. Once a decision to announce something has been made, the announcement has to be drafted, reviewed by multiple upper executives who with their corporate egos all have to contribute or change something(even if it's one word), then be finally approved by the top dog.

Even 3-4 weeks would have been quick.

 

[mhd]

They just put an ex-microsoft exec into a newly created role of Senior VP of D&D in early October.

Wasn't October when Ray Winninger left, who, when at Mayfair had to fight some legal battles with TSR?

 

[Ruin Explorer]

My wife is in corporate upper management. Once a decision to announce something has been made, the announcement has to be drafted, reviewed by multiple upper executives who with their corporate egos all have to contribute or change something(even if it's one word), then be finally approved by the top dog.

I work in a large corporate law firm, and whilst I totally agree on the sequence of events (indeed I described it in another thread), I will say, we manage to be a lot more responsive than that. Much more like "a week" or sometimes "2-3 days" than "3-4 weeks". But maybe being a lawfirm we're just good at this?

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Wasn't October when Ray Winninger left, who, when at Mayfair had to fight some legal battles with TSR?

boss's life experience can effect an entire corp culture, and if one changes the other most assured will.

 

[Maxperson]

I work in a large corporate law firm, and whilst I totally agree on the sequence of events (indeed I described it in another thread), I will say, we manage to be a lot more responsive than that. Much more like "a week" or sometimes "2-3 days" than "3-4 weeks". But maybe being a lawfirm we're just good at this?

Most likely. As a paralegal I have to say that working with the often very tight and absolute deadlines that law offices deal with daily breeds the ability to get things done more efficiently. You have to. You also don't generally have 3-8(or more) other lawyers all dealing with the document and making changes.

On the other hand, if the deadline is months off, I've never seen a lawyer get something done more than a few days early, and very often working late the evening before to get it done.