D&D General So how about alignment, eh?

[Umbran]

Pro-Alignment Folk 1: "But are you Chaotic Good, Neutral Good, or Lawful Good?"

Pro-Alignment Folk 2: "No, you're not Good! As GM, I'm telling you that a 'good' person would never get rid of alignment. Your alignment automatically shifts straight to 'evil.'"

Mod Note:
The snark and insult is not going to do anyone any good. It will, however, get posts reported and have moderators give you the hairy eyeball.

I am pretty sure you don't want the hairy eyeball, so how about... just not doing it?

 

[Vaalingrade]

Delete

 

[Hussar]

/snip

And where do you draw the line? Faction rules? The DM having any NPC reacting negatively to the PC's actions?

/snip

I’d say the line is pretty clear. Npcs are obviously the realm of the dm. Changing what’s written on a player’s character sheet is not. Factions are perfectly fine and everyone pretty much agrees that the dm is responsible here.

Telling players they are playing wrong isn’t. Policing the players is just a recipe for disaster. The fact that alignment has had zero impact on the game for fifteen years and two editions proves that alignment isn’t needed.

 

[ThrorII]

It's the DM's world, and the characters are inhabitants of said world, and thus are a part of it. If the world (i.e. the DM) sees a character as alignment XY then that's what it is for game purposes, regardless of what the character or its player might think or want.

Put another way, if you want to be perceived as being of a given alignment then bloody well play to it, even if only vaguely and only most of the time. And there's many ways to play to each alignment, and if what you end up with is near a border then it'll reflect that way e.g. for a character who shows as somewhere on the border between CG and CN (which is probably the long-term average among al characters) I'll quietly write either Cg or Cn as its alignment; if it's played closer to pure N then it might show as cg in small letters, or whatever.

Put yet another way, if the player's play of the character says one thing and the written alignment on the sheet says another, one of those things has to change or else we're immediately into bad-faith play territory. (if you disagree with this we've nothing further to discuss; I've no time for bad-faith play or defense of such)

A DM who says "You're playing it wrong" is taking the stance that the play of the character has to change to get these two things back in synch; a DM who (like me) says "What's written on the sheet has to change" is in fact saying the player's been playing it right but has simply written the wrong letters on the character sheet.

I think I'm in alignment (see what I did there!) with @Lanefan.

The player writes down their alignment. If they consistently go against the alignment, the DM can and should advise them they are not acting according to their professed alignment, and they are acting more "X" (whatever "X" is). If the character's actions continue to not jive with what is written, the DM can and should make a note on his side of the screen, listing the actual alignment of the character.

Alignment is the character's actions and behavior. The character may see himself as good, but that does not mean he is good.....

 

[Vaalingrade]

Alignment is the character's actions and behavior. The character may see himself as good, but that does not mean he is good.....

The problem is in who gets to decide what 'good' is.

That's where we get into morally judging our friends for no worthwhile benefit.

 

[Lanefan]

The problem is in who gets to decide what 'good' is.

That's where we get into morally judging our friends for no worthwhile benefit.

There's a rather vast difference between morally judging our friends and morally judging their game characters.

 

[ThrorII]

The problem is in who gets to decide what 'good' is.

That's where we get into morally judging our friends for no worthwhile benefit.

It is the DM's world. The DM acts as the divine being and director for the world.

If a character constantly steals, murders, and lies, but declares he's Lawful Neutral, the DM should and can decide the character is NOT Lawful Neutral. Especially in the realm of clerical spells, divine gifts, and alignment related magic items.

 

[Vaalingrade]

There's a rather vast difference between morally judging our friends and morally judging their game characters.

When the player is playing their character in a way they they player sees as good and the DM gets on their case? No there's not.

 

[Vaalingrade]

It is the DM's world.

Nope. If they want it to just be their world, they can write a book, not invite a bunch of weirdos to play with their toys.

 

[ThrorII]

This can be a problem with the 9-point alignment system. Where does Lawful Neutral stop and Lawful Evil begin? Where does Neutral Good become Chaotic Good?

But I don't think we're talking about those gradients (are we)?

I (at least) am talking about the differences between what is Good and what is Evil, and what is Lawful and what is Chaotic. Then there is the sub-section that asks, "are we using todays standards? or standards of 1250AD (or whatever era we're playing)?