D&D (2024) Should the PHB have an arcane half caster?

[Ruin Explorer]

Yeah.

Essentially 5e lacks some of the mainstream fantasy concepts because the lead designers lean on the older side and are slightly out of touch and 5e was meant to bring back many old and older D&D fans.

It is why the badelock was underpowered and the Hexblade was kludged into it to overpower it. The designers are from the old but not too old school where there are no Arcane warriors.


But modern fantasy both has them in lore and mechanics. D&D just has to choose a path.

A lot of stuff with 5E and 1D&D is unfortunately locked-in because 5E was an "apology edition", yeah, including having a Wizard who is a bad fit for just about everyone's vision of what a Wizard would be and which doesn't even really have class features. I dunno if it's to do with designer age

Support character and force multiplier is not a fundamentally dumb approach, especially by 3.X standards. Some people enjoy playing them.

Far fewer people enjoy playing pure support Bards than other Bards, I would strongly suggest. If you make a class into a pure support character like that, just a stand-and-do-nothing character, you're narrowing the audience on a popular archetype for no good reason. You're also tricking people who played 2E, 4E, or 5E because this isn't what they understand by a Bard. You can see how popular Bards are in 5E podcasts and so on, and none of them are played as that kind of "stand back and play tunes" support character, and if they were, they'd become a bad joke extremely rapidly. Like way more of a joke than characters like Scanlan, which is quite an achievement.

MMOs have seen the same thing - in the era when 3.XE was designed, people did honestly believe that "pure support characters" were a thing that people wanted to play, but it became obvious by like 2008 that that wasn't true, or the numbers were truly tiny. Hence more modern MMOs haven't had them.

(And one of my most dangerous and cheesiest 3.X villains was a bard playing a pipe organ to buff literally everyone in the mansion/dungeon).

Sure, and that's whole issue with the 3.XE Bard summed up: "cheesy bollocks". They were cheesy and meme-y and not particularly fun to actually play, because the best way to play them, was basically stand around and make real characters better. To buffbot. That villain was literally a buffbot. Which is fine for an NPC...

Or they'd be massively outperforming "real characters" who would mostly notice because when the bard didn't turn up they were about as effective at what they did as the bard was normally.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, but it sounds like "People would miss you if you were gone", which is what you say to the dude in It's a Wonderful Life, and I'm not sure comparing 3.XE Bards to him is really producing the image you're looking for lol. Don't jump, people will lose their +4 bonus to hit and damage!

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I have no idea why anyone wants an "arcane half-caster" beyond some weird fetish for symmetry, I have to say, and this thread has not enlightened me further on that. It seems more like people who want it want it purely for the sake of having it rather than because it's in any way necessary.

There have been so many discussions on this, at this point it’s hard to take not understanding it seriously.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

There have been so many discussions on this, at this point it’s hard to take not understanding it seriously.

I mean, what people have demonstrated in this thread is that I do understand it, and that it is a desire, basically, for symmetry for most people who want this. I wasn't confused, apparently.

One guy would like the Magus, a couple of people want the Artificer to suck less, one dude wants to nerf the Bard back into the 3.XE stone age, but everyone else seems to be missing a concept of what they actually WANT from an arcane half-caster entirely beyond "It is a thing which should exist".

Why don't I do a poll?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

I mean, what people have demonstrated in this thread is that I do understand it, and that it is a desire, basically, for symmetry for most people who want this. I wasn't confused, apparently.

One guy would like the Magus, a couple of people want the Artificer to suck less, one dude wants to nerf the Bard back into the 3.XE stone age, but everyone else seems to be missing a concept of what they actually WANT from an arcane half-caster entirely beyond "It is a thing which should exist".

Why don't I do a poll?

Nah. See literally any thread specifically about the arcane half-caster, or swordmage, or gish.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Nah. See literally any thread specifically about the arcane half-caster, or swordmage, or gish.

I've seen those threads, and this thread.

I notice you're evading the question yourself lol. Anyway, I put up a poll, tell me what I'm missing option-wise.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

I mean, what people have demonstrated in this thread is that I do understand it, and that it is a desire, basically, for symmetry for most people who want this. I wasn't confused, apparently.

One guy would like the Magus, a couple of people want the Artificer to suck less, one dude wants to nerf the Bard back into the 3.XE stone age, but everyone else seems to be missing a concept of what they actually WANT from an arcane half-caster entirely beyond "It is a thing which should exist".

Why don't I do a poll?

I'm in multiple camps. I want the artificer properly fleshed out as a PHB class, as it's both thematically unique and mechanically unique. The reason I like it being a half caster rather than a full caster is because that leaves more room for subclass power budget.

I also want a swordmage/magus/duskblade/gish/witcher/whateverpeoplewanttocallit type class. But not in the PHB. For that one I don't actually mind if it's a half caster, a 1/3 caster, or not a caster at all. What I do want for it is a proper class story as Defcon 1 has pointed out, and mechanics which allow varied and fun ways to inflict magical effects on weapon strikes as its 'signature ability'.

 

[Corinnguard]

From PF1's Ultimate Magic: There are those who spend their lives poring over ancient tomes and texts, unlocking the power of magic, and there are those who spend their time perfecting the use of individual weapons, becoming masters without equal. The magus is at once a student of both philosophies, blending magical ability and martial prowess into something entirely unique, a discipline in which both spell and steel are used to devastating effect. As he grows in power, the magus unlocks powerful forms of arcana that allow him to merge his talents further, and at the pinnacle of his art, the magus becomes a blur of steel and magic, a force that few foes would dare to stand against.

Is this what some of you who want their arcane half-caster warrior to be like?

Laser Llama's Magus Class:
Known by many names throughout the multiverse, those who are able to wield both sword and spell are collectively known as Magi. Rather than dedicate their lives to studying arcane magic or mastery of martial technique, these warriors choose a middle path. Though they may never command the earth-shattering magic of an archmage, or go toe to toe with a true master of the blade, a Magus is able to master a unique form of arcane combat only used by the members of their Order.

Their unique style of magic allows them to channel potent spells through their weapon strikes, sense the presence of arcane magic in the world around them, and blunt the force of even the most powerful spells with their signature Aegis.

How about this one? curious

Both versions of the Magus here present a concept of what an arcane half-caster warrior could be.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

From PF1's Ultimate Magic: There are those who spend their lives poring over ancient tomes and texts, unlocking the power of magic, and there are those who spend their time perfecting the use of individual weapons, becoming masters without equal. The magus is at once a student of both philosophies, blending magical ability and martial prowess into something entirely unique, a discipline in which both spell and steel are used to devastating effect. As he grows in power, the magus unlocks powerful forms of arcana that allow him to merge his talents further, and at the pinnacle of his art, the magus becomes a blur of steel and magic, a force that few foes would dare to stand against.

Is this what some of you who want their arcane half-caster warrior to be like?

Laser Llama's Magus Class:
Known by many names throughout the multiverse, those who are able to wield both sword and spell are collectively known as Magi. Rather than dedicate their lives to studying arcane magic or mastery of martial technique, these warriors choose a middle path. Though they may never command the earth-shattering magic of an archmage, or go toe to toe with a true master of the blade, a Magus is able to master a unique form of arcane combat only used by the members of their Order.

Their unique style of magic allows them to channel potent spells through their weapon strikes, sense the presence of arcane magic in the world around them, and blunt the force of even the most powerful spells with their signature Aegis.

How about this one? curious

Both versions of the Magus here present a concept of what an arcane half-caster warrior could be.

Storywise, that just proves the point that the class lacks any lore or story. That entire thing can be condensed down to 'person who can cast and use weapons'.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

I also want a swordmage/magus/duskblade/gish/witcher/whateverpeoplewanttocallit type class. But not in the PHB. For that one I don't actually mind if it's a half caster, a 1/3 caster, or not a caster at all. What I do want for it is a proper class story as Defcon 1 has pointed out, and mechanics which allow varied and fun ways to inflict magical effects on weapon strikes as its 'signature ability'.

I also want this - but I suspect they'd be best as not a normal caster at all.

 

[Frozen_Heart]

I've seen those threads, and this thread.

I notice you're evading the question yourself lol. Anyway, I put up a poll, tell me what I'm missing option-wise.

Wait where is the poll?