It is time to forgive WOTC and get back onboard.

[Faolyn]

My definition is what I am making decisions on.

Then it's a very self-serving definition, because it ignores that other people feel harmed.

The 3pps I have listened to have mostly praised WOTC for changing their mind and at least one of them is making the same argument I am (if not using the same verbiage).

OK, and? They still would have caused them harm if they hadn't. And they didn't choose to not go through with destroying the OGL out of the goodness of their hearts; they did it because of the uproar against them.

 

[ECMO3]

yeah, no, it was the full contract, with a copy with comments explaining stuff attached. The leak was the copy with comments, not the actual contract, but there was a contract too. The real contract was supposed to be signed within a week. Try sticking to what actually happened, so far you mostly managed to (despite the clear spin)

According to the video I watched it had line in comments that could not legally be kept in a contract. Things like "insert name here". Now I did not read it myself, but I got that off of the videos I was watching 2 weeks ago.

It was a nearly complete contract, but not one that would actually be a legally binding document if it were signed according to videos that explored this very thing during the heart of the controversy.

 

[ECMO3]

Then it's a very self-serving definition, because it ignores that other people feel harmed.

What about the people who are being harmed by the community boycots? Is that self-serving to hurt 3rd party creators because you are upset at what WOTC did?

OK, and? They still would have caused them harm if they hadn't.

Would have, could have, didn't.

And they didn't choose to not go through with destroying the OGL out of the goodness of their hearts; they did it because of the uproar against them.

I agree and I was a small part of that uproar, on this board, on DNDBeyond, in the gaming groups I played in, in the "playtest" and in the actuals letters I wrote and mailed to multiple individuals at Hasbro and WOTC.

 

[Scribe]

What about the people who are being harmed by the community boycots? Is that self-serving?

Not really.

Self serving is 'I want my products, I dont care what Wizbro does.'

When we say instead 'No, I'll pass on products I would have normally purchased, to send a message to the company that makes them." that is a consumer using the only voice they really have.

Its not the players that are harming 3PP by avoiding 5e products. Its the consequence of Wizbro actions. 3PP are being harmed, but put the fault where it belongs.

Wizards.

 

[Faolyn]

What about the people who are being harmed by the community boycots? Is that self-serving to hurt 3rd party creators because you are upset at what WOTC did?

From what I can tell, most people who are abandoning D&D aren't abandoning the system. They're just not buying from WotC anymore. Should WotC have to lay off writers or not pick up contracts again, those creators will undoubtedly be able to sell their talents elsewhere.

And those people who are abandoning the system are doing so by buying different games (there's hundreds upon hundreds of systems out there, don't forget), which means that they're helping different publishers. If I don't buy from Kobold Press or MCDM because I spend my money at Evil Hat and Pinnacle, game creators are still getting supported--and in my mind, it's even better, because different games are being supported. It's good to have more than game system out there.

Just how many 3pp products have you bought? Do you buy every single one that's put out? Because if you don't, if you have to pick and choose which products to buy, then by your own definition, you're "harming" those you companies you're not buying from. If you only buy D&D 5e-compatible goods, you're "harming" everyone who produces material for any other game out there.

Also, guess what? I am a 3pp creator. If WotC had decided to yank the OGL and make it so I couldn't sell my old book or couldn't produce new books, that would have harmed me a lot. As it is, I had some very unpleasant anxiety/panic attacks.

Sure, I only produced one book, for Level Up, but since Level Up used the OGL, WotC's actions would have harmed me. And that's why I won't publish my next Level Up under the OGL but will wait or Level Up to use the ORC, when that's ready.

 

[Irlo]

Fact: Declining to buy products is not harmful.

 

[mamba]

Can you name a 3rd party publisher that was harmed by what WOTC did who will not be further harmed by players abandoning D&D? If these creators exist then surely you can name one.

where did I say the players should abandon D&D? At most I said they should boycott WotC while still buying 3pp products (and even that was a question to you).

Also as a point of fact I never, ever said WOTC did nothing wrong. On this very thread I stated they lied and gaslighted the community.

fine, but you said

I would much rather have people who feel they were harmed realize they weren't really

which comes pretty damn close to it

 

[mamba]

According to the video I watched it had line in comments that could not legally be kept in a contract. Things like "insert name here". Now I did not read it myself, but I got that off of the videos I was watching 2 weeks ago.

one video is not the full extent of the available information though, is it. As I said, the document with in line comments was leaked, the contract itself was not (because there is a decent chance it would identify the leaker), but both were sent together.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Can you name a 3rd party publisher that was harmed by what WOTC did who will not be further harmed by players abandoning D&D? If these creators exist then surely you can name one.

I can tell you treantmonk has stated publicly on his website that he thinks his fans should not abandon 5E over what WOTC did, strongly implying if not stating that this course of action is wrong and would hurt creators. I have received similar from the people running a D&D related business that I know personally. So that is who I am basing my decisions on.

Also as a point of fact I never, ever said WOTC did nothing wrong. On this very thread I stated they lied and gaslighted the community. I said they did not revoke the OGL and I said what they did in the end did not harm 3p publishers. The firs is a verifyable face. As for the second, if I am wrong on that part, and WOTC did in fact harm some creators, those creators will be harmed even more by the community members leaving the game.

You seem unable to see a difference between WotC and 5e or Dungeons & Dragons in general. Rest assured some of us here do.

 

[ECMO3]

Not really.

Self serving is 'I want my products, I dont care what Wizbro does.'

When we say instead 'No, I'll pass on products I would have normally purchased, to send a message to the company that makes them." that is a consumer using the only voice they really have.

Its not the players that are harming 3PP by avoiding 5e products. Its the consequence of Wizbro actions. 3PP are being harmed, but put the fault where it belongs.

Wizards.

No. 3rd party creators are being harmed when people move away from D&D 5E. In fact that is the only reason revoking the OGL would have harmed them at all.

If people could just walk away and stop playing 5E and these creators would be unharmed then revoking the OGL would have been meaningless.