It is time to forgive WOTC and get back onboard.

[Faolyn]

I said everyone, you even quoted it, claiming I said ‘a lot of people’ (and I corrected you). Yeah, so far you have not shown the least bit of comprehension, so I am out

I have. Scribe wasn't talking about everyone, certainly not in a way to literally mean everyone. You misunderstood what they said and have doubled down on it.

 

[mamba]

I have. Scribe wasn't talking about everyone, certainly not in a way to literally mean everyone. You misunderstood what they said and have doubled down on it.

No, you misunderstood it. I tried to explain it, but that clearly is an exercise in futility. So for the last time, in my reply with the three examples of which two are contradictions, the third one (i.e. the one that is not a contradiction) is what ECMO3 was saying.

 

[mamba]

Sure you did not hurt KP specifically, you even helped them but you hurt the community, because the community is not going to shift to KP Black Flag and monster manual. They are just going to go away.

I like the direction Black Flag is taking, this Friday's news looks like it has a good chance of sticking around

"Project Black Flag is a set of open, core game mechanics that anyone can use to publish game content. It will fill in gaps in the SRD, improve existing 5E material, and ensure a 5E monster book and player book remain available for everyone.

We’re not doing this alone. Along with the support of the community, several publishers are committed to products that are PBF compatible 5E material or PBF originals."

For other 3PPS joining this, see

Project Black Flag Friday: Publishing Partners

Project Black Flag from Kobold Press proudly presents publishing partners including Frog God Games, Ghostfire Gaming, Steamforged Games, and more! Your 5E D&D game will only get better with Black Flag!

koboldpress.com

I already am as much a customer of this group as I am of WotC, and with this being 5e compatible there is no need for it to wither, it still reaches into the WotC part of 5e.

 

[ECMO3]

No? I had no intention of buying the Dragonlance book because I don't like Dragonlance. I haven't bought the majority of the adventures they've published either because they didn't interest me or because I wanted to play in them, not run them. I have never bought a 3pp tie-in to any official WotC material. I've never even been interested in them.

Then you are not boycotting WOTC.

In terms of this discussion you were not "on board" to start with, so it is impossible for you to "get back on board" as per the title of the thread.

Basically, your case is irrelevant to this thread.

 

[Faolyn]

Then you are not boycotting WOTC.

In terms of the title of this thread you were never "on board" to start with, so it is impossible for you to get you "back on board".

Basically, your situation is irrelevant to the point of this thread.

Except that I'm not buying the giants book, the Planescape book, and that deck of many things book because I don't want to support WotC.

But you still haven't said if, or how, me choosing to not buy a book because I don't want it is less, more, or equally harmful than not buying a book because I am not going to buy from that company. Nor have you said how WotC would even know my intent.

So again: I'm not buying Dragonlance because I don't like Dragonlance. Am I hurting 3pp creators, and how?

I'm not buying Planescape because I don't like WotC. Am I hurting 3pp creators, and how?

I did buy Van RIchten's Guide to Ravenloft, but I nave never bought a single third party 5e Ravenloft product. Am I hurting 3pp creators, and how?

Did you buy the 3pp SWADE setting book "Task Force Raven," put out by The Rune Forge (not Pinnacle, who produce SWADE)? If not, does this mean you are hurting either Pinnicle or 3pp creators?

Because if I'm not hurting the 3pp creators by not buying books that I'm not interested in, but I am hurting 3pp creators by not buying books because I don't want to support the company, then you are saying that somehow, my intentions have the magical power to hurt 3pp creators--in which case awesome, I have magic powers, bwa-ha-ha, fear my magical consumer wrath.

 

[ECMO3]

So again: I'm not buying Dragonlance because I don't like Dragonlance. Am I hurting 3pp creators, and how?

No. Your boycot of WOTC has no effect on 3pp creators WRT this sale and is irrelevant to this thread.

I'm not buying Planescape because I don't like WotC. Am I hurting 3pp creators, and how?

Yes. Your boycot of WOTC hurts 3pp creators compared to if you had not boycotted

There will be a smaller market overall for Planescape material, which will hurt 3p creaters. Fan content creaters will have a smaller audience, driving down the money their channels make, paid DMs will have fewer people playing driving down their sales, publishers will have a smaller market for their products.

I did buy Van RIchten's Guide to Ravenloft, but I nave never bought a single third party 5e Ravenloft product. Am I hurting 3pp creators, and how?

Irrelevant to the thread unless you bought this book since 27 January 2023 when I made this post. If you in fact bought this since January 27 2023 then you are "back on board" (at least with this purchase) and your decision to let go of your anger and buy is good for 3pp creators.

Did you buy the 3pp SWADE setting book "Task Force Raven," put out by The Rune Forge (not Pinnacle, who produce SWADE)? If not, does this mean you are hurting either Pinnicle or 3pp creators?

No, and like your Dragonlance example it is irrelevant to this thread.

Because if I'm not hurting the 3pp creators by not buying books that I'm not interested in, but I am hurting 3pp creators by not buying books because I don't want to support the company, then you are saying that somehow, my intentions have the magical power to hurt 3pp creators--in which case awesome, I have magic powers, bwa-ha-ha, fear my magical consumer wrath.

It is not magic, it is microeconomics.

Understand now?

 

[UngeheuerLich]

Just remember: it is no boycott if you don't buy things you hadn't bought anyway...

 

[Faolyn]

No. Your boycot of WOTC has no effect on 3pp creators WRT this sale and is irrelevant to this thread.



Yes. Your boycot of WOTC hurts 3pp creators compared to if you had not boycotted

There will be a smaller market overall for Planescape material, which will hurt 3p creaters. Fan content creaters will have a smaller audience, driving down the money their channels make, paid DMs will have fewer people playing driving down their sales, publishers will have a smaller market for their products.

See, here's where you're talking about magic again. The reason I don't buy a book is immaterial to WotC or to the 3pp. I didn't want to buy Dragonlance, I won't buy Planescape; in both cases, WotC gets no money from me, and in both cases, there was a smaller market for the books.

You haven't yet shown how there's any sort of actual correlation between my motivation for not buying a book and any harm brought to 3pp creators, beyond "because I say so."

Irrelevant to the thread unless you bought this book since 27 January 2023 when I made this post. If you in fact bought this since January 27 2023 then you are "back on board" (at least with this purchase) and your decision to let go of your anger and buy is good for 3pp creators.

Well, I didn't buy it since then, of course; I bought it when it came out. But this still completely fails to follow. I didn't buy a single 3pp Ravenloft material connected to it. I have never bought any 3pp material for Ravenloft. Therefore, I have not supported any 3pp. So have I been harmful to 3pp creators?

I have to ask: do you actually think that all or most people who buy WotC books also buy 3pp material for it?

No, and like your Dragonlance example it is irrelevant to this thread.

It's entirely relevant. You aren't supporting a 3pp creator. Therefore, you are harming them. Unless somehow my motivations are the only ones that matter, or that 3pp creators who create material for WotC are the only ones who matter and you think all other game companies can go hang.

It is not magic, it is microeconomics.

Understand now?

Not at all. Because you still seem to think my motivation actually matters here.

And you know what? Those 3pp that are so "harmed" by me can maybe start thinking about producing material for other systems, or producing original 5e-compatible material instead of tie-ins.

 

[mamba]

See, here's where you're talking about magic again. The reason I don't buy a book is immaterial to WotC or to the 3pp. I didn't want to buy Dragonlance, I won't buy Planescape; in both cases, WotC gets no money from me, and in both cases, there was a smaller market for the books.

If you are not buying something because you would not have bought it anyway, no one lost out on a sale.

If you do not buy something you would have otherwise bought because you are now boycotting WotC when you did not before, then someone did lose a sale.

It’s not magic, it’s a lost sale… now whether you want to consider either case hurting that someone is a different matter. Whether you boycotting WotC hurts 3rd parties is yet another matter.

 

[Faolyn]

If you are not buying something because you would not have bought it anyway, no one lost out on a sale.

If you do not buy something you would have otherwise bought because you are now boycotting WotC when you did not before, then someone did lose a sale.

It’s not magic, it’s a lost sale… now whether you want to consider either case hurting that someone is a different matter. Whether you boycotting WotC hurts 3rd parties is yet another matter.

No, this still says that they can read my motivation. Because ECMO3 has basically said that if I wanted to buy something but didn't because I didn't have the money for it, that it doesn't count; they didn't lose my sale and the 3pp people weren't hurt. Which means that it is literally my motivation that counts.

The only way they can actually lose a sale is if I buy it and either cancel the sale before I get the product, or buy and then return the product. Any time before that, they didn't have my sale in the first place.