It is time to forgive WOTC and get back onboard.

mamba

Legend
What the OP is saying on this narrow point (that same point you both have been going back and forth on), is that this circumstance harms the 3PP whose product is a supplement to the WotC product because even though not all (yes, no guarantee, of course there isn't) but statistically most of that product's sales will be from an owner of that particular WotC product.
that is a trivial point though, and not the same as not buying WotC is harming 3pps.

I also do not believe this is their actual point, would have been easy to clarify in all of this, but yet they never explained it like this

You are someone who is disagreeing with that!
If I did, I would not have started my sentence like that… my agreeing with your interpretation of what the OP means (which is false btw, even though it is the only sensible one) is what I agreed with, and then I gave a counterargument to the OP’s position (and you agreed with that too…)

The two positions are not the same, which is why I agree with yours and we both disagree with theirs

What you wrote is blatantly obvious, do you really believe this would be going on this long / at all if this were the original position?
 
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that is a trivial point though, and not the same as not buying WotC is harming 3pps.
For sure.
I also do not believe this is their actual point,
Not the entire point, but this tiny detail seemed to be a bone of contention between @ECMO3 and @Faolyn for some reason.
would have been easy to clarify in all of this, but yet they never explained it like this
Not everyone has my gift for language.
If I did, I would not have started my sentence like that… my agreeing with your interpretation of what the OP means (which is false btw, even though it is the only sensible one) is what I agreed with, and then I gave a counterargument to the OP’s position (and you agreed with that too…)
Well, it's not false. This is only my interpretation of that tiny part of the OP's argument. Which, as I said, was being (IMO) painfully misunderstood over, and over, and over again.
The two positions are not the same, which is why I agree with yours and we both disagree with theirs
Yup.
What you wrote is blatantly obvious, do you really believe this would be going on this long / at all if this were to original position?
See above. It was driving me nuts that there was all this discussion about this miniscule point which is the only reason I posted. I have nothing to add to the more overarching debate that you all are having with the OP.
 

I didn't like either what they wanted to do, but I say again we need Hasbro because they have a lot of means to create new paths and promote the hobby among potential new players. D&D is not only the rules, but also their worlds: FR, Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, Ravenloft...
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
Right. But not the point. See below.

That's true. But, again, not the point. Of the group of people who do buy a 3PP supplement, what percentage would you say also own the product that supplement is based on?
This is unimportant, because ECMO3 wasn't talking about people who buy the 3pp supplements--they were specifically talking about people who buy, or don't buy, the WotC products. In fact, they have specifically said that me choosing to not buy the WotC product for any reason other than a boycott wouldn't be harmful to 3pp creators. I didn't buy the WotC book because I can't afford it? Because I don't like the setting? Because I'm leery of the book being bad? Because I don't need a new adventure? No harm, no foul. I didn't buy the WotC book because because I don't want to buy from WotC? Those poor 3pp creators will be starving in the streets because of me.

If ECMO3 had been talking about people who buy the 3pp supplements, then they would have been perfectly happy with people buying non-WotC 3pp D&D material, since at the end of the day, it's still 3pp creators getting the money. Instead, they are specifically upset with those of us who are not buying from WotC.

With you here.

No! :) That is not the other premise. You are quite off topic here. Harming all creators?
That's what ECMO3 said. You might want to address what they're saying before trying to claim what I'm saying is wrong.

The single, narrow point I was backing the OP on (and I think the single, narrow point that you and the OP having been going back and forth on) is specifically the case where a consumer, who under normal circumstances would have bought a WotC product, now decides to boycott that product. What the OP is saying on this narrow point (that same point you both have been going back and forth on), is that this circumstance harms the 3PP whose product is a supplement to the WotC product because even though not all (yes, no guarantee, of course there isn't) but statistically most of that product's sales will be from an owner of that particular WotC product.
And that's the problem, because you aren't seeing what's going on when you're focusing on a "single, narrow point."

Because ECMO3 is insisting that even though I would never, under normal circumstances, have bought a 3pp tied to a WotC book, I am harming those 3pp creators by not buying the WotC books. Because "a high tide raises all boats." Because the trickle-down effect--which they even admitted they believed would occur.

It seems that @mamba understands what the OP and I are saying. They understood, and gave a lovely response. If you go back and read the post that mamba is responding to, you'll see that one part of this response of theirs is wrong:

You are someone who is disagreeing with that! :)
THIS IS LITERALLY WHAT I'VE BEEN SAYING THIS WHOLE TIME.

What the blankety-blank did you think I was saying? That I wasn't buying any gaming books? Were you simply not reading any of my posts?
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
I didn't like either what they wanted to do, but I say again we need Hasbro because they have a lot of means to create new paths and promote the hobby among potential new players. D&D is not only the rules, but also their worlds: FR, Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, Ravenloft...
There's many, many 5e-compatible settings that have been produced by non-WotC creators. You don't need Hasbro to have a non-homebrew world; you just need to be able to buy one of these books and willing to run it.
 

ScYork

Explorer

It is time to forgive WOTC and get back onboard.​

I don't like the title, this should be a question: Is it time to forgive WOTC and get back on board?

Maybe, but my 'share of wallet' has been divided up significantly towards Pathfinder products...and depending on the quality of WOTC stuff coming down the pipeline...maybe

But, still willing to give WOTC the cold shoulder for now!
 

Jadeite

Open Gaming Enthusiast
I didn't like either what they wanted to do, but I say again we need Hasbro because they have a lot of means to create new paths and promote the hobby among potential new players. D&D is not only the rules, but also their worlds: FR, Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, Ravenloft...
If they use those IPs for stuff like VRGtRL or especially the Spelljammer set, I don't need Hasbro or WotC.
 


I didn't like either what they wanted to do, but I say again we need Hasbro because they have a lot of means to create new paths and promote the hobby among potential new players. D&D is not only the rules, but also their worlds: FR, Dragonlance, Dark Sun, Spelljammer, Ravenloft...
The thing is WotC shouldn't be the only path to doing that. Let's look at the video game industry. Nintendo with all their IP was a good company to rebuild the video game industry in the 80s, then Sega came along with Sonic and the industry reached new heights from that competition. Sony brought things to the next level and the industry has never looked better.

WotC isn't going anywhere, so people shouldn't be afraid of people actively looking for the TTRPG version of Sega to give publishers options of systems to create for and give fans a choice in where they spend their gaming dollars. Good competition is healthy for pretty much any industry.
 


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