Where do we stand on Harry Potter?

[demonsquidgod]

We’re not able to, and nor should we have an open and honest debate about JK Rowlings views because we’re supposed to avoid politics. So we’re probably best restricting discussion to the books and derivatives.

I did see this specifically about the goblins and JK Rowling.

To be clear, there is absolutely not a folktale tradition of Goblins being a legally and culturally oppressed group of second class citizens that nonetheless control the world banking system. It's blatant antisemitism and nothing else.

I think discussing these things I'd important if for no other reason so we can shine a harsh light of criticism on its many objectionable qualities. However, I think it's good to understand that any discussion of harry potter is going to involve those objectionable qualities and not spend a lot of time or energy defending the undefendable

 

[Reynard]

A trans girl was murdered here in the UK a day or two ago. JKRs twitter fans are currently telling her family it was a) her own fault for inviting attention and/or b) nothing to do with her being trans, just a normal everyday school feud, nothing to see here. Can we really talk about JKRs media without dealing with this spectre? The spectre she encourages and funds from the money she makes from the IP that we should be discussing with sober neutrality?

Honestly, no judgement. I am open to persuasion.

I want to be clear: my thesis is simply that some people -- even queer and trans people -- of a certain age grew up with HP and it's important to them. I'm not saying JKR isn't a monster. I'm not saying that Trans people that feel unsafe or unwelcome in HP spaces have invalid feelings. And I am certainly not minimizing the very real threats and stresses that queer and Trans people live under, especially kids.

The whole point of my initial response to this thread was that we, here, at ENWorld, can talk about HP in the correct context and with an positive attitude. People for whom HP is a problem can not participate in those threads, just like any other subject which might include concerns or triggers.

And that's the last thing I'll say on the subject.

 

[JAMUMU]

The whole point of my initial response to this thread was that we, here, at ENWorld, can talk about HP in the correct context and with an positive attitude. People for whom HP is a problem can not participate in those threads, just like any other subject which might include concerns or triggers.

Totes man. No shade. But talking about HP in the correct context and with a positive attitude will always be, from a UK angle, talking about work that is Far Right and murder-apologist-current-fandom adjacent.

 

[demonsquidgod]

I want to be clear: my thesis is simply that some people -- even queer and trans people -- of a certain age grew up with HP and it's important to them. I'm not saying JKR isn't a monster. I'm not saying that Trans people that feel unsafe or unwelcome in HP spaces have invalid feelings. And I am certainly not minimizing the very real threats and stresses that queer and Trans people live under, especially kids.

The whole point of my initial response to this thread was that we, here, at ENWorld, can talk about HP in the correct context and with an positive attitude. People for whom HP is a problem can not participate in those threads, just like any other subject which might include concerns or triggers.

And that's the last thing I'll say on the subject.

If you can't handle criticism of something, especially something as obviously objectionable as the works of Rowling, then you shouldn't discuss it in a public forum.

 

[niklinna]

To be clear, there is absolutely not a folktale tradition of Goblins being a legally and culturally oppressed group of second class citizens that nonetheless control the world banking system. It's blatant antisemitism and nothing else.

I think discussing these things I'd important if for no other reason so we can shine a harsh light of criticism on its many objectionable qualities. However, I think it's good to understand that any discussion of harry potter is going to involve those objectionable qualities and not spend a lot of time or energy defending the undefendable

Yeah, "talking about" is not necessarily "advocating for" (explicitly or implicitly), but can very much be about critical analysis.

 

[MGibster]

Honestly, I think Minecraft's influence now dwarfs Harry Potter in terms of introducing kids to fantasy, including being even more mainstream, if such a thing can be imagined. (The original endgame of Minecraft is traveling to another plane to kill a dragon, for anyone who doubts its fantasy bonafides.)

For the sake of argument let's say it's true that Minecraft is more influential than Harry Potter. That doesn't mean Harry Potter is irrelevant when it comes to fantasy.

To be clear, there is absolutely not a folktale tradition of Goblins being a legally and culturally oppressed group of second class citizens that nonetheless control the world banking system. It's blatant antisemitism and nothing else.

Sometimes the difficulty is that particular images are so ingained in our culture that we often don't realize the origins. I was watching an episode of the Clone Wars and they introcued the Intergalactic Banking Clan. If you haven't seen the episode, the bankers had vaguely Easter Island style heads with very pronounced noses. There are many people who thought these duplicitous bankers touched on many historica Anti-Semetic beliefs from the past. Was it a deliberate call back on the part of the writers and animators? I doubt it. But it's there.

Totes man. No shade. But talking about HP in the correct context and with a positive attitude will always be, from a UK angle, talking about work that is Far Right and murder-apologist-current-fandom adjacent.

What's the correct context to speak about Lovecraft? Call of Cthulhu has been in publication for more than forty years now, can we say anything positive about it or the stories that inspired the game without being sus?

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

What's the correct context to speak about Lovecraft? Call of Cthulhu has been in publication for more than forty years now, can we say anything positive about it or the stories that inspired the game without being sus?

I think the transformative nature of CoC effectively wrests the mythos, once and for all, out of Lovecraft's ghostly hands. I am not a fan of the mythos -- at all -- but it's not hard to find lots of examples of PoC creators and others whom Lovecraft would no doubt have to return to a sanitarium if he knew about doing great work with what he started. It no longer belongs to him -- he's just one more sinister New Englander in the mythos tales at this point.

JKR is still with us and is intent on retaining as much control over the franchise as possible.

Once upon a time, ENWorld had more or less non-stop discussions about her apparent antipathy toward ttrpgs, with the most popular theory being that she was worried we'd do something "wrong" with the Potterverse. What those "wrong" things might be have sadly become clearer with time.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

For the sake of argument let's say it's true that Minecraft is more influential than Harry Potter. That doesn't mean Harry Potter is irrelevant when it comes to fantasy.

No, but compare it to the Worm Ouroboros.

crickets

Once upon a time, it was mentioned in the same breath as the Narnia and Middle-Earth books. Today, it's almost forgotten.

Potter is still very popular today, but I think we've seen its peak and are unlikely to see it approach those heights again.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Sometimes the difficulty is that particular images are so ingained in our culture that we often don't realize the origins.

I will say that one of my problems with The Phantom Menace was the use of RW racial stereotypes as the basis for certain aliens. It wasn’t the only disappointment, but it was among the more problematic ones.

Kinda killed the franchise for my family.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

No, but compare it to the Worm Ouroboros.

crickets

Once upon a time, it was mentioned in the same breath as the Narnia and Middle-Earth books. Today, it's almost forgotten.

Potter is still very popular today, but I think we've seen its peak and are unlikely to see it approach those heights again.

Part of the reason for Eddison’s Worm to be in popular decline is artistic decisions he made. Literary merits aside, it’s written in a style emulating older English prose, and that’s a “speedbump” for many readers. It’s simply not as immediately accessible as something written in contemporary prose.