Where do we stand on Harry Potter?

[ValamirCleaver]

As a general rule, the world is made better by watching things that include Diana Rigg.

Hence my previous specific example.

The 1986 TV movie starred Fairuza Balk, Diana Rigg, Charlotte Rae & Tim Curry.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Hence my previous specific example.

Yes, I was responding to you.

 

[Bayushi_seikuro]

As a general fantasy-lit outsider with just brief knowledges of various well-respected authors, I thought I would toss my two cents in, because... Internet

I feel we get the Hows and Whys of JKR's attitude, her beliefs, etc. I really believe we would be having this same discussion if her work approached Tolkien's skill - it's not because she makes a lesser, but still influential, piece, but 1) because she still profits and 2) she still uses her platform to cause hurt, apparently not even caring how it affects her fanbase

My understanding of Tolkien's work, to my understanding from things I've read (I've weirdly only been able to finish the Silmarillion), is that it could be seen as a whole heapin' lot of class and race messages, including England being better in the past (the Shire) and that outsiders, even Good, well-meaning ones like Gandalf, only caused a steady downfall. However, he didn't use that as a public forum, for example, to bash immigrants coming to England. His 'better England' is like the world of the Rings - it was long ago, way in the past, where we only see little glimpses of that glory now. His writing was essential to the story and style he wanted to use, and so harkening back to those days made sense, equating England 'slipping' to the fall of the elves.

I have two sons, one who was really into HP. His twin brother, oddly enough, is into 1984 and Farenheit 451 at age 14. I can't speak to others' experiences, but I don't think I need to discuss JKR and her politics with the son who enjoys HP barring something else bringing it up. I also was lucky that, as far as trans issues, my sons' public school seems very supportive despite us being in the Buckle of the Bible Belt, and I'm lucky that when they were growing up, we had a neighbor who was a little older and was experimenting clearly with a gender identity fluidity. I'm lucky that I could already attempt to start a dialogue with things like 'Why does Noah have painted nails and make-up?' etc.

Thanks for letting me ramble. TL;DR - I think discussions are and can be good here, I think or hope we can seperate the art from the artist especially with the impact in this case where part of some people's identity is ALSO part of the fiction created by this author (from my experience people can identify as Gryffindor or Jedi as easily as they might as Hungarians). We hopefully can remain respectful of all perspectives and identities and if not, absolutely slap someone silly with the banhammer.

 

[MGibster]

I think the transformative nature of CoC effectively wrests the mythos, once and for all, out of Lovecraft's ghostly hands. I am not a fan of the mythos -- at all -- but it's not hard to find lots of examples of PoC creators and others whom Lovecraft would no doubt have to return to a sanitarium if he knew about doing great work with what he started. It no longer belongs to him -- he's just one more sinister New Englander in the mythos tales at this point.

I don't. I think talking about cosmic horror and omitting Lovecraft is like talking about American Gothic literature and forgeting about Edgar Allan Poe. Granted, you're right, the field is certainly a lot more open than it was in Lovecraft's day and would send the old man back to Arkham, but his shadow yet looms. We're talking about a dude who has influenced Stephen King, Neil Gaiman, Guillermo del Toro, and whose derivitive works can be found in such diverse sources as South Park, The Grim Adventures of Billy & Mandy, Black Sabbath, Metallica, a myriad of video games, and I'm sure I'm just scratching the surface. The dude's ghastly tentacles stretches pretty damned far for a writer who was failure during his lifetime.

I don't say this to talk about the merits of his work in particular, only that he continues to be an influence. And to deny that is odd I think.

Edit: Is it possible to talk about Lovecraft in the context of gaming without making others feel excluded or threatened? And if the asnwer is no, what do you think we should do about that on these boards? With the understanding that ultimately the owner makes the rules and we either abide by them or leave.

 

[Gradine]

Rowling has donated $100 million+ to charities among which include childrens poverty, AIDS, Dyslexia, MS charities

It's like carbon offsets, but for eradicating trans people.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Is it possible to talk about Lovecraft in the context of gaming without making others feel excluded or threatened? And if the asnwer is no, what do you think we should do about that on these boards? With the understanding that ultimately the owner makes the rules and we either abide by them or leave.

I always think in terms of the concept of “reasonable accommodation” aka not making perfection the enemy of the good.

It’s probably impossible to discuss ANY potentially controversial topic without possibly excluding or threatening someone. But we can take steps to minimize that issue for most ENWorld members & lurkers.

As mentioned here & elsewhere, I’m a POC but also a fan of the stories of HPL and other Mythos contributors. Ditto REH and a host of other IP creators. Discussing their bigotry and other flaws doesn’t bug me at all.

But I’m 55 years old and am pretty thick skinned. I’ve been on white supremacist websites researching conversations about black NHL players. Others won’t have my ability to read that kind of vitriol without being deeply affected. And some will definitely be more able to handle it than I can.

What we can’t do is limit difficult conversations to the kind and character of those least able to handle difficult conversations.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

I don't say this to talk about the merits of his work in particular, only that he continues to be an influence. And to deny that is odd I think.

I'm not trying to deny his influence. I'm saying the mythos no longer belongs to him (were he alive) in the way that the Harry Potter universe belongs to Rowling. Even in his lifetime, he let others play in his tentacle-filled sandbox, which Rowling does not do.

That creates a space to tell mythos stories without the ghost of Lovecraft peeping around corners and offering up his views of Black people. I don't think you can disentangle the universe of Harry Potter from Rowling's views that way, as even the Cursed Child was read over and signed off on by her. Her fingerprints are all over everything, sometimes lightly, sometimes not, but always there.

 

[Maxperson]

Sometimes the difficulty is that particular images are so ingained in our culture that we often don't realize the origins. I was watching an episode of the Clone Wars and they introcued the Intergalactic Banking Clan. If you haven't seen the episode, the bankers had vaguely Easter Island style heads with very pronounced noses. There are many people who thought these duplicitous bankers touched on many historica Anti-Semetic beliefs from the past. Was it a deliberate call back on the part of the writers and animators? I doubt it. But it's there.

As a Jewish man I'm with Jon Stewart on this. Even if you can draw parallels between the goblins of Harry Potter and old antisemitic pictures, that doesn't mean it was done intentionally or is even based on those old pictures. I don't believe that she intentionally designed those goblins with those parallels in mind. And I feel the same way about the guys from Star Wars.

One of the things that really bothers me is this tendency to automatically say that something to which you can draw a parallel to racism, if it wasn't done overtly, is automatically connected subconsciously to racism. As if it isn't possible for someone to completely coincidentally come up with such a parallel. Not only is it possible to do, it's very possible. That's why I refuse to be offended by coincidence.

If you want me to be upset over something that is potentially antisemitic, you need to show me that it was deliberate. When I was in my 20's I was very poor. One day I was traveling on a bus with my 1 year old daughter in my lap. My family has dark brown to black hair, but for some reason we are born blond and it takes a year or two for the hair to darken. So here I was with my blond daughter in my lap when a guy gets up to get off of the bus. As he passed me he said, "Wow. There's more than a little Aryan in her. You must be proud." Since I had a little girl in my lap, I just sort of grunted noncommitally and he exited the bus. That was antisemitism. It was clear.

The same can't be said for JK's anti-trans sentiments. She has articulated those very clearly. They are deliberate and the bigotry is clear.

 

[Parmandur]

As a Jewish man I'm with Jon Stewart on this. Even if you can draw parallels between the goblins of Harry Potter and old antisemitic pictures, that doesn't mean it was done intentionally or is even based on those old pictures. I don't believe that she intentionally designed those goblins with those parallels in mind. And I feel the same way about the guys from Star Wars.

One of the things that really bothers me is this tendency to automatically say that something to which you can draw a parallel to racism, if it wasn't done overtly, is automatically connected subconsciously to racism. As if it isn't possible for someone to completely coincidentally come up with such a parallel. Not only is it possible to do, it's very possible. That's why I refuse to be offended by coincidence.

If you want me to be upset over something that is potentially antisemitic, you need to show me that it was deliberate. When I was in my 20's I was very poor. One day I was traveling on a bus with my 1 year old daughter in my lap. My family has dark brown to black hair, but for some reason we are born blond and it takes a year or two for the hair to darken. So here I was with my blond daughter in my lap when a guy gets up to get off of the bus. As he passed me he said, "Wow. There's more than a little Aryan in her. You must be proud." Since I had a little girl in my lap, I just sort of grunted noncommitally and he exited the bus. That was antisemitism. It was clear.

The same can't be said for JK's anti-trans sentiments. She has articulated those very clearly. They are deliberate and the bigotry is clear.

I've been reading up on the blood lipbel material in the new game...it's pretty overt anti-Semitism, even if one could give a pass to the original book and movies as just representing common lazy tropes.

 

[Maxperson]

I've been reading up on the blood lipbel material in the new game...it's pretty overt anti-Semitism, even if one could give a pass to the original book and movies as just representing common lazy tropes.

Yeah. I'm not talking about the video game. I don't know much about that other than what little I've read here. I'm speaking about JK's contributions to Harry Potter.