Not a Conspiracy Theory: Moving Toward Better Criticism in RPGs

So question out there for folks who feel bad about success with consequences ("feels like failure"). Three different situations in 5e D&D:

1) Something with an Aura where "if you're in x range, take y damage" like the Balor's Fire Aura. A melee character is getting punished for getting into melee (start of Balor's turn they take 10 fire damage) AND getting punished for hitting in melee (10 more fire damage).

2) Something like a Remorhaz with its Heated Bloody or something with Acidic Blood or something. You get in melee range. You attack. You hit. You do damage. Boom > automatic 10 fire damage in return.

3) Something with Legendary Actions whereby, at the end of your turn its thwacking you. Like a Dragon's Breath or Wing Buffet or Tail Swipe or anything that can attack you at the end of your turn because you've triggered such a potential mechanical effect being brought to bear as a result of engaging it in melee (or getting within proximity of its effect or whatever). I'm a Rogue and I'm getting up in melee to deliver my payload. I thwack the dragon. The Str Melee Fighter is going to go meganova9000 on the dragon and is perfectly positioned to do so. 2 Legendary Actions spent on Wing Buffet and the Fighter is now prone and the Dragon has flown 40 ft away. Fighter hosed.

How do we feel about these mechanical effects? "Feels bad...that is success with a consequence that is basically failure?" Does one "feels bad" worse than the other? Why?
Initial thoughts: the first two are just fine. If nothing else they're in-character learning experiences, teaching the PCs to back off and hammer the thing with missiles and ranged attacks instead of standing in close to it. (and they're lucky that's a 5e Remorhaz; the 1e version can melt the weapon you hit it with!) More broadly, the PCs have a workaround.

The third one I'm not so sure about as it kinda violates my thoughts on how actions and initiative should work. The Legendary Actions, being actions, should get their own initiatives (yes, I'm way off from 5e RAW here) and happen then. If the Fighter's init is higher than the wings' then (deep echoing voice) launch meganova9000 (/deep echoing voice); but if the Fighter's init is lower then too bad for the Fighter. (I'm being finicky in parsing terminology here; if they were supposed to be Legendary Reactions I assume it would say that)
 

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My experience in those games has generally been feeling like I'm waiting for the scenario to resolve enough that I can go play the game, and then realizing I don't have any tools to do that, and any time I try take an action, I'm risking the game unwinding further, and worse, I'm supposed to be okay with that and declare actions anyway. I keep waiting for the scenario to be clear, so I can try and solve it, and then realizing that will never be the case. It's like playing a roguelike that regenerates the level every time I take a step.
I can relate to this. Particularly in Torchbearer 2, where I oftened wondered if I was ever gonna get a break! But that grindy feeling is a pointed and explicit part of the game (and a central mechanic of the game is even called The Grind). However, after a few sessions, I started to figure out that I did have tools—not to solve individual things as such, but to influence things in directions I wanted to explore, and ultimately to solve the scenario in a satisfactory manner. I got good at the mechanics pretty fast, all things considered, and was able to solve that part of the game to my satisfaction. But when advancement requires "failing" by design, it can make the game tough to swallow. I really enjoyed the intellectual puzzle of mastering the rules, but I didn't particularly like the feel of our characters always struggling—although there were moments of absolute glory amidst all the misery.

Blades in the Dark is much less harsh, but also a bit mushier mechanically, in my opinion. There are tools to steer things, but many of them involve more freeform negotation than with Torchbearer 2: trading position for effect, devil's bargains, pushing by paying stress, assisting teammates, flashbacks, setup moves, recruiting NPC help, and more. In Blades in the Dark, you advance by risking greater consequences should things go bad rather than having to actually get a bad dice result. The game starts out with the characters in a pinch, but they can advance out of that pinch surprisingly quickly (a bit too fast for my tastes). I've played Blades in the Dark rather more than Torchbearer 2, but I feel I'm nowhere near the same level of system mastery in it. That said, I generally enjoy the feel of the game quite a lot, way more than Torchbearer 2.

An aside: Both game texts have...issues with their organization and clarity. This has a big impact on actual and felt system mastery.
 

I've played Blades in the Dark rather more than Torchbearer 2, but I feel I'm nowhere near the same level of system mastery in it. That said, I generally enjoy the feel of the game quite a lot, way more than Torchbearer 2.

This is an interesting point to me, since one of the reasons I'm drawn to FitD right now is that I think games like Blades pretty much take system mastery out of the equation. Like once you learn the basics of the rules, there aren't a whole lot of optimized choices, each job and scene could have different stakes and different kinds of consequences. And even if something like system mastery is possible, you aren't typically playing the game for years anyway.

But I'm admittedly pretty new to FitD, so am I missing something?

Btw, preferences on the table, as a player I'm very drawn to the idea of system mastery, but I also kind of hate myself when I think I've achieved it. So I totally get the appeal—maybe a little too well!
 

This is an interesting point to me, since one of the reasons I'm drawn to FitD right now is that I think games like Blades pretty much take system mastery out of the equation. Like once you learn the basics of the rules, there aren't a whole lot of optimized choices, each job and scene could have different stakes and different kinds of consequences. And even if something like system mastery is possible, you aren't typically playing the game for years anyway.

But I'm admittedly pretty new to FitD, so am I missing something?
No, you aren't missing anything, in fact you raise a good point! System mastery doesn't matter as much in Blades in the Dark, as compared to Torchbearer 2, and playing Blades is much less about optimizing mechanical choices. That said, there is a system, and I don't feel that I have as firm a grasp on it as I do that of Torchbearer 2. And perhaps one reason for that is that it hasn't been absolutely necessary. Another way to put is that, while both marry fiction and mechanics, each game slightly, but clearly, puts priority more on one of them.

Btw, preferences on the table, as a player I'm very drawn to the idea of system mastery, but I also kind of hate myself when I think I've achieved it. So I totally get the appeal—maybe a little too well!
Depends on the system for me. Some systems, once I've "figured it out", it makes the game less engaging. Others, that level of knowledge enhances game play for me. And still others, keep revealing new depths and nuance so that I always feel liking I'm mastering, but have never mastered.

Those are the best games, in my opinion. :)
 

So don't talk about 5e... What I've seen is there's this need to almost always juxtapose the games you (general you) enjoy with 5e but then those who disagree with how you (again general) characterize 5e or label it's traits or just your opinion on 5e aren't supposed to comment either. So if you're really tired of talking about 5e then don't.

EDIT: Also what you are stating here really has no bearings on the ask in the post I quoted along with yours. IMO it's almost outright saying I shouldn't hold a different opinion... I need to "respect" games they like and enjoy as well as the designers... again for... reasons.
I would like to see more "lifting up" of non-trad game virtues without feeling the need to compare them to 5e. I would certainly like to engage in positive discussion of those games solely on their own merits.

I'll start. I've been thinking of starting a Star Trek Adventures game for a while now. That style is not really my go-to by any means, but I thought my love for the subject matter would help me get through any reticence I might feel. Has anyone played that game and is willing to talk about it?
 

Or even on the fly, if (as is often the case) this encounter is something the GM didn't see coming.

Countless are the times I've quickly had to think to myself "What makes this NPC tick?" as the PCs decide on the spur of the moment to interact with someone I've previously not given a second's thought to. And so I come up with a personality for this NPC, and then try my best to stay true to it during the interaction. (and then hope I can remember what that personality was when the PCs come back six months later!)

Right, I get that. But how do you determine the outcome of the social interaction? What's the tipping point for that NPC to say "you know what, I'll take your silver and let you in"? Do you determine a specific amount of coin? Or if deception is used, how do you decide what's tricky enough?

How is it any more of a railroad if the GM is deciding on the fly or if it's pre-written into the module?
Let's for a moment change the parameters and say this guard is written up in the module: "Jannik is loyal to his job and generally dutiful but can be persuaded to turn a blind eye to minor transgressions with a little cash, or brandy; and he is also easily distracted." Railroad? I think not.
You're assuming here that the GM is going to have the guard refuse entry every time. Not necessarily the case.

It may or may not be more of a railroad. But if there are set numbers, and we use dice to help determine the outcome, then it's not the GM deciding the outcome.

You've now added more details to your example that make it less likely to be a railroad. But still... how is the outcome determined?

Because either the written module or the run of play (i.e. something the players or my dice did) put it there.
Not my style. If they specifically ask about a ball or similar high-society event, that's what I'm going to quickly dream up some odds and roll for (unless I already know the answer e.g. it's written in a module); and if my dice show me there's one coming up then so be it: there's one coming up whether I-as-DM like it or not.

I'm struggling to understand why you brought up the example of the GM not wanting to run the ballroom scene.

A better question. For me, I generally won't introduce things I'm not interested in running unless I'm forced to either by dice or player inquiry/action. An example: as DM I more or less loathe running PCs-as-businesspeople and thus I'm likely never going to have any NPCs suggest the PCs start a business, but f they decide on their own to start one then that what I've got to run.

So you leave something like the existence of something you don't want to run up to the roll of the dice? That seems a bit odd.

Why not make the list consist of things you are interested in?

I'm just not seeing the jump in logic here that gets you to "railroad". Explain, perhaps?

You've described a situation where the GM is interacting with the player, without (it seemed at the time, but maybe not now?) much concern for mechanics, or the absence of related mechanics. You then decide how things go based on the interaction at the table, what the player said and how they said it, and how you feel about that. And then you added in the DM's feelings about not wanting to run a ballroom scene.

If you don't see the risk of a railroad in there, I'm not sure I can explain.

Agreed to a limited point: I too want mechanics that support the fiction, and sometimes the best way for them to do so is to not be doing anything. As for wanting there to be a game along with the roleplay, there's lots of game in all the abstractions that take care of things we can't roleplay.

But when the system steps away from the fiction in the way you're describing, what is it replaced by? The GM, mostly.

Again, I agree but only to a limited degree. Oftentimes that information just - quite realistically - isn't available until it's too late. You don't know the specifics that make the guard tick, you don't know whether it'll be pouring rain that night and thus the guard might be taking shelter in the pillbox rather than standing at the door, and so forth.

That said, if you've got +8 on Bluff then I-as-DM most certainly have to take that into account when roleplaying my NPCs' reactions to your attempts to hoodwink them.

Right, but if there is a skill system or something similar to it, then I at least know how good my character is at persuading or bluffing overall. That's something to go on.

And again, if this guard is meant to be meaningful, then I would zoom in on it a little more. I'd emphasize the importance a bit, and then we'd play it out.

But if he's just a guard, a minor obstacle to be dealt with, then tell me how you want to do that, and we roll to see what happens.

Thing is, sometimes the most "meaningless" things can turn out to hold great meaning - or not. The guard is an obstacle that can potentially be bypassed in numerous ways (some riskier and more daring than others e.g. a PC could decide to bypass the guard by breaking in through a 2nd-story window!); and depending on how the interaction goes might also become an opportunity (e.g. if a PC uses some sort of mind control on the guard and turns him into an information source). The latter can't happen if the interaction is skipped.

Thus, my default is to play everything out unless it's clear the players don't want to, and to not care how long doing so might take. There's always more sessions for that which doesn't get done in this one.

Yeah, that's definitely one way to do things. I don't do it that way. I'm not going to spend as much time on a guard as I will the ballroom scene, where I assume something more interesting is expected to happen. There's not much reason to do that, and every reason to do the opposite.
 

I would like to see more "lifting up" of non-trad game virtues without feeling the need to compare them to 5e. I would certainly like to engage in positive discussion of those games solely on their own merits.

I'll start. I've been thinking of starting a Star Trek Adventures game for a while now. That style is not really my go-to by any means, but I thought my love for the subject matter would help me get through any reticence I might feel. Has anyone played that game and is willing to talk about it?

I've played it, and I'm not a big Star Trek fan. It's a decent game. It's more traditional than not, although it does have "Momentum" which is a kind of group currency that can be used to influence the outcomes of rolls. And the GM accumulates "Threat" which he can use to introduce complications. These kind of "meta-currencies" rub some folks the wrong way, but I found Momentum to be pretty interesting, and it helped highlight the aspect of cooperation that seems to be pretty fundamental to Star Trek.

I didn't GM it, so I don't know exactly how interesting Threat may be, but it did come up in that it added some complications for us in play, which I thought was interesting.

Besides those two elements, it's otherwise very traditional in its approach.
 

I would like to see more "lifting up" of non-trad game virtues without feeling the need to compare them to 5e. I would certainly like to engage in positive discussion of those games solely on their own merits.

I'll start. I've been thinking of starting a Star Trek Adventures game for a while now. That style is not really my go-to by any means, but I thought my love for the subject matter would help me get through any reticence I might feel. Has anyone played that game and is willing to talk about it?

I have not played Star Trek Adventures but have run Dune. Also have played Infinity. Looking forward to running Dishonored. I'd be more than happy to participate in discussion of the Heat/Momentum economy. 2d20 is one of my favorite trad games. If you start a thread, I'll jump right into it.
 

I have not played Star Trek Adventures but have run Dune. Also have played Infinity. Looking forward to running Dishonored. I'd be more than happy to participate in discussion of the Heat/Momentum economy. 2d20 is one of my favorite trad games. If you start a thread, I'll jump right into it.
Just started the thread:

 

No, you aren't missing anything, in fact you raise a good point! System mastery doesn't matter as much in Blades in the Dark, as compared to Torchbearer 2, and playing Blades is much less about optimizing mechanical choices. That said, there is a system, and I don't feel that I have as firm a grasp on it as I do that of Torchbearer 2. And perhaps one reason for that is that it hasn't been absolutely necessary. Another way to put is that, while both marry fiction and mechanics, each game slightly, but clearly, puts priority more on one of them.
Someone outside this conversation pointed something out to me that I wanted to make clearer. System mastery very much matters in Blades in the Dark, and it does matter right away. But, I feel the pressure's much higher from go in Torchbearer 2. Blades gives just a little breathing room to feel I can try things and have them go wrong, while I learn the other areas of play, such as downtime activities in all their breadth and the faction game, which are important early on, but vital in later play. That is to say, the learning curve doesn't feel as steep to me. On the other hand, Torchbearer 2's many interlocking gears are so much more...mechanically formal than the tools in Blades in the Dark, that I can grasp them and work them more easily.

(An additional factor may well be that another player in the current campaign leaned so heavily into the faction/political game that he takes care of nearly all that stuff at the crew level, while my character has quietly built his personal power, and focused on just a few tight alliances. He's now on the threshold of realizing his demonic heritage as we slide into the endgame.)
 

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