D&D General Why a PETITION: Stop Hasbro's hurtful content is a Bad Idea

[haakon1]

Like, I know there are Mystara fans out there, but is this an incredibly significant release? There are people here who said they were embarrassed upon seeing it. Its portrayal of Orcs is certainly racist, but is it actually significant? Like, did it contribute to what came after it in a notable way? And in what way if so? Like, I got into D&D in the mid-90s as a kid and it wasn't until … thread that I had even heard of this book.

With you there. I’ve been playing since 1982 and I never heard of GAZ10 until the protest. I played and ran AD&D when this came out, and I probably saw it in stores, but I don’t recall it being “noted“ in any way until now.

Of course, I also don’t know what a “+” thread is, so maybe my observation skills are weak.

I would much rather a new work be created than an old one edited, but also I don't think just selling this book with POD is good, either. I don't fully agree with all the suggestions in the other thread, but I really think there are works that are more important than others, and I'm not sure that this book deserves the defense it gets.

I figure a 35-year-old, unpopular-at-the-time book for an out-of-print edition and an out-of-print setting is essentially irrelevant. If GAZ10 sales are 1/10000th of D&D sales, I‘d be surprised it’s that lucrative.

And that’s the danger I see. WotC has no reason to defend this book, OR ANY out-of-print book.

WotC has their disclaimer on all “old“ works, and I assume it’s not worth an interns time to read it all to look for offensive stuff, much less inclusion experts with significant hourly rates to thoroughly review and write content specific disclaimers - which, not for nothing, would admit WotC “knew” whatever was in it, but allowed it be downloaded, bringing them more trouble.

I fear the logical conclusion for Hasbro is to just stop selling pre OneD&D stuff. Though it seems almost everyone here favors 5e (I do not) and overlooked it, one of elements of the new OGL that I particularly hated was that it banned everything from the original OGL & SRD’s - potentially banning OSR & PF1.

Last weekend, I was looking at 2e Of Ships and the Sea, and downloaded 3e Stormwrack - similar books for different editions. I’m a 3.5e DM who “sources” in an edition neutral way - I even bought Harn’s Pilots Almanac and I’ll use 5e’s Ghost of Saltmarsh too.

I don’t want a situation where prior content is banned, selectively or en masse. The disclaimer seems like a good compromise.

If GAZ10 specifically gets canceled, yeah OK. But if a second old book gets canceled, gotta draw a line before the obvious corporate answer is pull everything from the Dark Ages prior to 2023, since it’s just not worth it.

Ooh, if “heists” become controversial, even 2023 stuff will need to go!

 

[Stormonu]

Orcs of Thar and Drums on Fire Mountain both have serious issues, there's no doubt about it. I feel though, that the existing disclaimer on the purchase page is mostly sufficient - though I wish the "history" on the page made it clearer about the offensive racial stereotypes contained within the product.

While the player's section is filled with an unfortunate attempt attempt at comedy at the expense of native american culture (and I think was meant to parallel GW's hooligan orcs, though without understanding GW's take) the DM's section opens with very dark, but interesting take that is simply dropped after the initial opening. I think if they had followed this line of thinking they could have made a really interesting, if grim, setting to play in.

The DM's Intro

Spoiler

..."Just as the forces of chaos rule over the Sphere of Entropy, the forces of law rule over birth an atonement. So does the universe maintain its balance. Humanoids were not created without a reason. Other beings of the universe view them as evil and brutal, but few realize the harshness of their lives."

"Indeed, being an orc among mortals is no give from the Immortals. It is in truth a penalty. very soon after life appeared on this world, chaos followed. It was decided by the lords of the four spheres that the most chaotic beings would once be reborn in humanoid bodies to live a life of harship and atone for their crimes. Only the most evil beings would suffer this pain, but so much evil was ingrained in this world, that it create a major race of beastmen, who later became the orcs."

"After centuries, orcs, goblins, and their humanoid brothers overran a great share of the world. It was only by the bravest efforts of humans, elves, halflings and dwarves, that the orcs have not taken over, making others' lives indeed miserable. Such is the fate of the orcs. They must endure the hatred of the other races, suffer pain and hunger, and die on the battlefield - but never will they disappear. Only those who prevail over these circumstances with the frame of their mortal lives may learn the truth about their fate..."
[\spoiler]

I'd love to see a reimagining of Orcs of Thar with the above at its core. Not merely that Orcs are "born bad", but they have a chance to escape the rebirth cycle by becoming better and overcoming their troublesome nature. PCs could choose to embrace their inner hideousness, or become a band of heroes trying to move away from the thoughts and acts that cast them into their current form.

 

[Zardnaar]

Apologies for using the Mein Kampf example. It has led to unfortunate derailment and a discussion about the example and not the underlying point.

From this point forward I would ask that readers substitute their own work that fits the point. Whether that is Birth of a Nation or the Censored 11 or whichever work you feel is appropriate.

The point is, numerous works that are racist, bigoted or otherwise objectionable are published for profit. Many without any warnings or boilerplate at all.

For me I'm fine with pretty much anything published especially if it old and doesn't meet current clues.

What's art or trash history will generally decide. Read plenty if objectionable stuff at uni I'm history, classics hell even economic papers.

Bigger problem to me us other people relling me what I can and cant read (context not talking about illegal content).

Tried readinh MK it was godawful. Probably never watch Birth of a Nation but might oneday.

Personally I think things are getting counter productive. Trying to cancel something draws attention to it just ignore it. Wish people did that in 2015.

Also wonder about bad faith actors or people causing more harm than what they're trying to save.

 

[mamba]

I would like to point out that in the original + thread, @Dungeonosophy engaged with others who had dissenting opinions. It did not appear that they were stifling debate or intending to stifle debate.

it got stifled by the mods quite aggressively though, because of being tagged as a + thread, so clearly that was the OP’s intent

 

[M_Natas]

But to clarify my earlier post which is referenced in the OP, I mentioned Mein Kampf as an example of an obviously problematic work that is still sold for profit. There are obviously many others as well. So the argument that a publisher should not sell a book for profit because it is objectionable doesn’t really hold a lot of water to me. I do believe that works like this, given the boilerplate warning, are not harmful to be sold.

It is forbidden to sell the german version of Mein Kampf. The german state of Bavaria holds all rights of the works of Adolf Hitler and forbids anybody to publish it.
Now, the rights to the english translation are with some American company, I think, so they can publish the English version. But you wouldn't be allowed to sell it in Germany.

 

[jasper]

• What stops the OP from creating a 3PP version of Gaz 10 with everything he wants?
• The petition is calling for censorship or at least Bowdlerizing the original work.
• How about the OP create Kickstarter with only $100 buy in to pay WOTC to replace the work. Raise 2 million and Wotc will lisen

 

[AnotherGuy]

• How about the OP create Kickstarter with only $100 buy in to pay WOTC to replace the work. Raise 2 million and Wotc will lisen

Do Mystara fans want WotC to touch that setting? I don't.
I'm happy with fan-made content such as the GazF line and the Threshold magazine.

 

[Alzrius]

It is forbidden to sell the german version of Mein Kampf. The german state of Bavaria holds all rights of the works of Adolf Hitler and forbids anybody to publish it.

Well clearly that's not true.

 

[Krachek]

• What stops the OP from creating a 3PP version of Gaz 10 with everything he wants?
• The petition is calling for censorship or at least Bowdlerizing the original work.
• How about the OP create Kickstarter with only $100 buy in to pay WOTC to replace the work. Raise 2 million and Wotc will lisen

Past years there was another thread on GAZ10. It takes me 5 minutes to get a free copy of the pdf. Don’t bother to create a kickstart.

 

[Voadam]

This is the important thing, I think. Is there anything in Gaz10 that's actually useful or important enough to be repurposed for a modern, bigotry-free game? Based on the thread about it posted a while ago here, I don't really think so--at most, you could take the barest scraps of ideas and flesh them out in a different way.

It has BECMI racial classes for kobolds, goblins, hobgoblins, orcs, gnolls, ogres, trolls. It has two racial humanoid spellcaster classes.

A full skill rule set for BECMI.

It has a whole wargame with counters.

A neat table of random minor horde names (straight, not disparaging cultural caricatures).

Some decent fantasy cultural name lists.

Defective weapon, oversized weapons, and mismatched piecemeal armor rules.

It has the fantastic Gazetteer hex maps and maps for the region.

Some people really enjoy parts of the setting straight.

Thar is a decently big deal in the Mystara setting with a lot of war and raiding threat connections to Darokin, Glantri, Ethengar, and Rockhome (even without sharing a direct border, there are mountains technically part of Darokin in between).

A 36th level orc war leader is pretty cool.

There is a setting storyline involving a couple immortals and their plots with multiple populations.