D&D 5E WotC: Why Dark Sun Hasn't Been Revived

In an interview with YouTuber 'Bob the Worldbuilder', WotC's Kyle Brink explained why the classic Dark Sun setting has not yet seen light of day in the D&D 5E era.

I’ll be frank here, the Dark Sun setting is problematic in a lot of ways. And that’s the main reason we haven’t come back to it. We know it’s got a huge fan following and we have standards today that make it extraordinarily hard to be true to the source material and also meet our ethical and inclusion standards... We know there’s love out there for it and god we would love to make those people happy, and also we gotta be responsible.

You can listen to the clip here.

 

[Parmandur]

I don’t know how hard core fans feel but for me it was one of the things that made it interesting and distinct from the standard fantasy settings. I do think psionics were kind of a pain in that edition so easier mechanics would be great. But an important part of the feel was having a system that functioned differently from magic and felt different from magic mechanically. I would say also adds to that post apocalyptic vibe

I think it's a big part of getting that Planatsry Romance, Lost Planet Mars vibe.

If I were going to pitch a Dark Sun product, it would be a campaign along the lines of the Dragonlance one, tied to a board game for war scenarios, outlining a military campaign for the PCs to work their way out from the Free City of Tyr to overthrow the Sorcerer King's and liberate the Tablelands. I think the origins of Dark Sun as a mass combat showpiece are unfortunately overlooked: the Sorcerer King's were meant to be someone to fight against in large scale combat.

 

[kunadam]

D&D is a PG-13 brand, and DRk Dun is pretty edgy. Doing PG-13 Dark Dun might tick off more people than it interests.

So my 10-11 years old can learn about slavery in History class and how the Roman economy dependent on them, but he could not play in a game where there are slaves? Strange.

It's been a looong time since I read it and I may be misremembering, but didn't Athas also have nomadic, thieving, swindling elves? Because given the awful stereotype of "thieving, swindling gypsies", that's potentially also a thing of problem for WotC, I imagine.

But they are elves. And as far as I remember they don't even remotely looks like gypsies. There are plenty of "gypsies" in Ravenloft and also in Wheel of Time RPG (WotC did it for 3.5e).

 

[Charlaquin]

I don’t know how hard core fans feel but for me it was one of the things that made it interesting and distinct from the standard fantasy settings. I do think psionics were kind of a pain in that edition so easier mechanics would be great. But an important part of the feel was having a system that functioned differently from magic and felt different from magic mechanically. I would say also adds to that post apocalyptic vibe

Right, but notice how everything you’re praising about it is aesthetic/tonal. I don’t deny that psionics contributed positively to Dark Sun’s particular vibe. What I am saying is that they don’t really relate to the core themes of the setting. It would be a significant change to remove psionics, but I don’t think they’re essential to the setting because the themes wouldn’t be harmed or even significantly altered by such a change.

 

[Charlaquin]

I think it's a big part of getting that Planatsry Romance, Lost Planet Mars vibe.

Right. Big contributor to the vibes, but not to the deeper messaging. But hey, maybe I’m the weird one for valuing theme as more “essential” than aesthetics when it comes to an RPG setting.

If I were going to pitch a Dark Sun product, it would be a campaign along the lines of the Dragonlance one, tied to a board game for war scenarios, outlining a military campaign for the PCs to work their way out from the Free City of Tyr to overthrow the Sorcerer King's and liberate the Tablelands. I think the origins of Dark Sun as a mass combat showpiece are unfortunately overlooked: the Sorcerer King's were meant to be someone to fight against in large scale combat.

That’s really interesting! Having never read the original material, this was completely lost on me. I’ve always seen Dark Sun as a vehicle for personal, character-focused stories.

 

[James Gasik]

So my 10-11 years old can learn about slavery in History class and how the Roman economy dependent on them, but he could not play in a game where there are slaves? Strange.

But they are elves. And as far as I remember they don't even remotely looks like gypsies. There are plenty of "gypsies" in Ravenloft and also in Wheel of Time RPG (WotC did it for 3.5e).

Depending on what state you live in.

 

[Parmandur]

Right. Big contributor to the vibes, but not to the deeper messaging. But hey, maybe I’m the weird one for valuing theme as more “essential” than aesthetics when it comes to an RPG setting.

That’s really interesting! Having never read the original material, this was completely lost on me. I’ve always seen Dark Sun as a vehicle for personal, character-focused stories.

It was dropped after s bit, but that was the origin: give a space for players to explore Batte System and the Complete Psion.


From the official history on the DMsGuild for the OG box set:

"Origins. In 1990, the TSR higher-ups, worried about decreasing interest in Dragonlance, decided they needed a major new campaign world. They also decided that Battlesystem Second Edition (1989) needed a tie to a campaign world in order to be successful. Somewhere along the way, it was determined that the new setting would also support PHBR5: The Complete Psionics Handbook (1991), which introduced psionics to AD&D 2e play. The result of these varying directives was a design overseen by Steve Winter and created by Timothy B. Brown and Troy Denning that was initially called "War World".
Battlesystem would be integrated into the first few Dark Sun supplements, but this tie would soon be dropped. This Psionics connection was more long-lasting; psionics are ubiquitous in the Dark Sun world of Athas, something that was quite unique in D&D gameplay."

 

[kunadam]

Depending on what state you live in.

Hungary, Europe. To be honest I cannot comprehend most of the issues discussed here. DS is the Ancient World setting for D&D. It portrays the vast societal inequalities, the at-will wars waged on each others. Then it is also evident why it is a point of light setting: without a source of water, people cannot live and those sources of water are tightly controlled. In many sense it would make a more perfect setting to D&D than any else. Adventuring (you go about in a country fully armed and rob tombs) would not really fit any setting that mimics our 15th - 18th century.

 

[Bedrockgames]

Right, but notice how everything you’re praising about it is aesthetic/tonal. I don’t deny that psionics contributed positively to Dark Sun’s particular vibe. What I am saying is that they don’t really relate to the core themes of the setting. It would be a significant change to remove psionics, but I don’t think they’re essential to the setting because the themes wouldn’t be harmed or even significantly altered by such a change.

This might just be a difference of perspective on game settings, but for me, how a setting feels, in terms of mechanics, can be an essential element of the setting (I wouldn't limit essence to its themes). But that said, psionics was something where it isn't just the feel that makes it significant (it creates a distinct feel and I was focusing on that but I think psionics very much tie into the theme of post apocalypstic world where the environment is ruined by magic, and the sun is corrupted). I also seem to recall there was a whole thing about how just about everything in the setting has some measure of psionics and that was tied to its themes of survival. Others can certainly reasonably disagree but I see psionics as more than just aesthetics in this case, they form something pretty foundational to what makes it different from other settings in the 2E line.

 

[Minigiant]

The part Many are missing is that they're thinking like fans and not like salespersons.

The question is can you sell a 5e version of Dark Sun that sells as Many copies as the Eberron book or the Wildemount book or the Strixhaven book? After all the drama with Strixhaven, Spelljammer, and the OGL issues?

What might be fine for your table might not make a drop of money enough to make any major publisher blink.

I work in sales. At least once a week I have to tell a client or customer that the thing they what is in no way popular enough for any vendor to have in stock or even plan to make. Once a week is generously low balling it. So I'm a bit more pessimistic than most.

Now someone can go ahead and do a Kickstarter for "Black Star" if they want.

 

[Charlaquin]

This might just be a difference of perspective on game settings, but for me, how a setting feels, in terms of mechanics, can be an essential element of the setting (I wouldn't limit essence to its themes). But that said, psionics was something where it isn't just the feel that makes it significant (it creates a distinct feel and I was focusing on that but I think psionics very much tie into the theme of post apocalypstic world where the environment is ruined by magic, and the sun is corrupted). I also seem to recall there was a whole thing about how just about everything in the setting has some measure of psionics and that was tied to its themes of survival. Others can certainly reasonably disagree but I see psionics as more than just aesthetics in this case, they form something pretty foundational to what makes it different from other settings in the 2E line.

Yeah, as I said in an earlier post, it might very well be that I’m the weird one for considering theme the only “essential” element of an RPG setting. I think it’s a perfectly fair assessment that Dark Sun without psionics wouldn’t be Dark Sun, even if I don’t entirely agree.