D&D (2024) Will Pact Magic survive?

[GMforPowergamers]

Multi-classing where you choose to advance in another class is dumb and I wish it wasn’t in the game at all. We have entire subclasses dedicated to hybridizing concepts AND the design space of feats, we don’t need MCing.

I would like 4e style where there were 2 feat chains per class to pick up 1 or 2 special abilities from 1 class and drop them in another mixed with subclasses.... or just hybrid classes that aren't straight mutli classes (paladin and ranger like)
but no full multi classing

 

[Krachek]

I would love a caster without spell slots or spell points.
At-will spells, once a day, recharge on rolling initiative,
I still hope for a joker caster that don’t use the usual system.

That said warlock feel more like an half caster, with a reliable melee and range options.

 

[Undrave]

That is a big issue. 2 spell slots for what is effectively most of the warlock's main career is a huge hindrance for anything other than spam attack/go Nova play. But again, 2 spell slots at level 5 (when most casters have 9 total) is kinda weak. Even if they rest, they have 4 or 6. Of course, those are 3rd level slots, which is fine if you are casting 6 3rd level spells or upcasting lower level spells, but you lose power if you cast spells that aren't benefitting from that 3rd level slot (utility magic like comprehend languages or floating disc) you're wasting 3rd level slots to cast 1st level spells. That really pushes warlocks to focus only on attack or defense magic that scales, further pushing them into blaster or hexblade builds.

Maybe spell slots should scale at the rate of proficiency bonus: 2 at level 1, 3 at level 5, 4 at level 9, 5 at level 13 and 6 at level 17. That might give them more breathing room for uses (assuming they remain capped at 5th level)

The Warlock's limits are what make it fun. If he could just use a ton of spells optimally he'd just be a wizard.

 

[Undrave]

I would like 4e style where there were 2 feat chains per class to pick up 1 or 2 special abilities from 1 class and drop them in another mixed with subclasses.... or just hybrid classes that aren't straight mutli classes (paladin and ranger like)
but no full multi classing

Yes! I think MCing should be more about merging aesthetics and theme and not necessarily about perfect mechanical merging. I don’t think a Rogue 2/Wizard 2 is as fun as an Arcane Trickster 4 with the Ritual Caster feat, IMO.

 

[Pauln6]

The two biggest issues you didn't address is the fact they require mandatory short rests to be effective and spell prep is based on spell slots, not a "spells known" number. The system as is conflicts with 1D&D's design ethos. To remove short rest recharge, you're going to have to double or triple the spell slots for a per day, which would also fix spells prepped I guess. But at that point all your doing is keeping the "auto upcasting" mechanic.

Honestly, I'm surprised that people are so happy with pact magic. Those short rests must be plentiful in your games.

I will be honest and say that for me personally, the warlock doesn't have enough magic. I took Tome Warlock, rituals, shadow touched feat, a magic wand, and eventually levels in shadow sorcerer. But I don't mind that the base class needs modification or multiclassing to get more spells. I do think a limited mechanic to restore a spell slot sounds like a good idea though.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I would love a caster without spell slots or spell points.
At-will spells, once a day, recharge on rolling initiative,
I still hope for a joker caster that don’t use the usual system.

That said warlock feel more like an half caster, with a reliable melee and range options.

if the answer was to take a bunch of warlock spesfic spells and make them short rest or encounter recharge class features I think that could work

 

[GMforPowergamers]

Yes! I think MCing should be more about merging aesthetics and theme and not necessarily about perfect mechanical merging. I don’t think a Rogue 2/Wizard 2 is as fun as an Arcane Trickster 4 with the Ritual Caster feat, IMO.

my biggest problem is that the optimal choice is often not the fun one.

The very fact that we have like 5 or 6 gish options bugs me bladesinger, hexblade, eldritch knight, rune knight and sword bard could all be a swordmage/magus class that has those as subclassses instead of a bunch of patch subclasses

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I took Tome Warlock, rituals, shadow touched feat, a magic wand, and eventually levels in shadow sorcerer.

my tome lock ended the game with multi epic boons... I was a 17 tome warlock/ 3 divine soul sorcerer with both shadow touch and magic adept druid... a warlock of baba yaga that had so many at will abilities I can't even remember them all... the funny part was that I had so many at will spells and cantrips at the end and I never ended up taking eldritch blast at all...

Early game I had primal savagery and toll the dead, and in the end I had hand of radiance and chill touch mixed in.

 

[Remathilis]

my biggest problem is that the optimal choice is often not the fun one.

The very fact that we have like 5 or 6 gish options bugs me bladesinger, hexblade, eldritch knight, rune knight and sword bard could all be a swordmage/magus class that has those as subclassses instead of a bunch of patch subclasses

The thing is, each of those paths are different enough that you can't replace them with one another. A blade singer is primarily a spellcaster who can temporarily act as a warrior. An EK is a heavy armor fighter that gets a few spells. Despite the fact you can cast one round and swing a sword the next, they don't play remotely the same. (A blade singer lives and dies by AC, one hit and they're toast. An EK can tank like any melee class. But one is going to get 5th+ magic and the other isn't).

 

[Remathilis]

I will be honest and say that for me personally, the warlock doesn't have enough magic. I took Tome Warlock, rituals, shadow touched feat, a magic wand, and eventually levels in shadow sorcerer. But I don't mind that the base class needs modification or multiclassing to get more spells. I do think a limited mechanic to restore a spell slot sounds like a good idea though.

I'd like to see space carved out of the warlock for a proper summoner, a witchy curse/debuffer, etc. But like you, I find every time I start diving into a warlock, I end up looking at every caster feat and then drifting into sorcerer (or alternatively going into a melee class if a hexblade to shore up tankiness).

(It doesn't help that so many sorcerer subclasses dovetail into warlock patrons. Celestial/divine soul, Goo/aberrant mind, fathomless/storm, undead/shadow, etc)