D&D (2024) Will Pact Magic survive?

[Remathilis]

The obvious solution is to give warlocks a recharge mechanic, usable (proficiency bonus) times per day, which takes one minute. This would be consistent with the general thrust of 1D&D in moving short-rest mechanics to prof/day, and it solves the whole problem very neatly and cleanly.

That's not theorycrafting, by the way. My table has been using a house rule along those lines for years (a short rest is 5 minutes, capped at 2 per day per character) and it works great. Others on ENWorld have done the same.

As far as spell prep being based on spell slots... well, yeah, that's not going to work with pact magic. But that's only a problem if 1D&D insists on trying to modify pact magic to be more like other kinds of spellcasting, which is exactly what I'm arguing against.

So what, in practical terms, is the difference between giving a warlock 2 spell slots and 2 recharges and giving them 6 spell slots per day? I guess you can't go Nova in one fight, but assuming they aren't going for 5 minutes workday, the math is the same.

But I think the writing is on the wall if the bard is any indication. They were spontaneous casters with an eclectic mix of spells and now they use the same mechanics as all the other casters we've seen. I just don't see how WotC justifies the changes to bards or druids but then let's warlocks have a spell system that runs contrary to every other caster in the PHB.

I guess we'll find out in a packet or two.

 

[GMforPowergamers]

I mean, the OTHER thing that fixes both of those problems is the standard 9-level spell progression.

that destroys the best class in 5e

 

[TwoSix]

So what, in practical terms, is the difference between giving a warlock 2 spell slots and 2 recharges and giving them 6 spell slots per day? I guess you can't go Nova in one fight, but assuming they aren't going for 5 minutes workday, the math is the same.

Not being able to go nova in a fight is a pretty big practical difference!

 

[Dausuul]

So what, in practical terms, is the difference between giving a warlock 2 spell slots and 2 recharges and giving them 6 spell slots per day? I guess you can't go Nova in one fight...

That is the difference, yes. It's a big deal. Warlocks contribute solidly in a run-of-the-mill fight without using any spell slots at all; if you can hoard six top-level spells and drop them all on the end boss, that's a severe balance issue. It also (as you note) contributes to the 5-minute workday problem.

But I think the writing is on the wall if the bard is any indication. They were spontaneous casters with an eclectic mix of spells and now they use the same mechanics as all the other casters we've seen. I just don't see how WotC justifies the changes to bards or druids but then let's warlocks have a spell system that runs contrary to every other caster in the PHB.

I don't like what they did to bards either. And I hate to imagine what sorcerers are going to look like. At this point I'm pinning my hope on the fact that these are playtest versions; they may be pushing the "streamline and simplify" approach to its limits to see what reaction it gets.

(My feelings on the druid are more mixed. The new approach to Wild Shape is too bland for my taste, but it does solve a lot of the problems with the old version -- chief among them being the vast discrepancy between forms, and the fact that they don't scale with level. In 5E, if you want to play a "wolf druid," you're going to be woefully underpowered compared to the druid who turns into bears and then dinosaurs. I'd like to see them iterate on the new version; maybe expand the list of three forms to ten or so, with more individual flavor.)

 

[GMforPowergamers]

That is the difference, yes. It's a big deal. Warlocks contribute solidly in a run-of-the-mill fight without using any spell slots at all; if you can hoard six top-level spells and drop them all on the end boss, that's a severe balance issue. It also (as you note) contributes to the 5-minute workday problem.

I already see high level warlocks as nova potental... at the level they get 3 slots (11, maybe 12?) you can push through the day without using many slots at all, maybe none and then punch super hard in the last (or big if not last) encounter.

 

[TwoSix]

I already see high level warlocks as nova potental... at the level they get 3 slots (11, maybe 12?) you can push through the day without using many slots at all, maybe none and then punch super hard in the last (or big if not last) encounter.

Gaining the 3rd slot at 11 is an absolute game changer for warlocks. I'd love to see that pushed down somewhere into tier 2, like at level 5 or 7.

 

[Undrave]

In a choice between pact magic and multi-classing, I'll keep multi-classing. 99% of all mc combos are fine. The only broken parts are 1.) Going into a 1 level cleric for full weapon/armor proficiencies or 2.) Using pact magic as free paladin smites or free sorcery points per short rest. The first is being fixed by holy orders and domain coming later, now it's time to fix the second.

Multi-classing where you choose to advance in another class is dumb and I wish it wasn’t in the game at all. We have entire subclasses dedicated to hybridizing concepts AND the design space of feats, we don’t need MCing.

 

[Remathilis]

Gaining the 3rd slot at 11 is an absolute game changer for warlocks. I'd love to see that pushed down somewhere into tier 2, like at level 5 or 7.

That is a big issue. 2 spell slots for what is effectively most of the warlock's main career is a huge hindrance for anything other than spam attack/go Nova play. But again, 2 spell slots at level 5 (when most casters have 9 total) is kinda weak. Even if they rest, they have 4 or 6. Of course, those are 3rd level slots, which is fine if you are casting 6 3rd level spells or upcasting lower level spells, but you lose power if you cast spells that aren't benefitting from that 3rd level slot (utility magic like comprehend languages or floating disc) you're wasting 3rd level slots to cast 1st level spells. That really pushes warlocks to focus only on attack or defense magic that scales, further pushing them into blaster or hexblade builds.

Maybe spell slots should scale at the rate of proficiency bonus: 2 at level 1, 3 at level 5, 4 at level 9, 5 at level 13 and 6 at level 17. That might give them more breathing room for uses (assuming they remain capped at 5th level)

 

[Pauln6]

Not being able to go nova in a fight is a pretty big practical difference!

Fighters don't really nova. I think warlocks play out in a similar way.

 

[Remathilis]

Not being able to go nova in a fight is a pretty big practical difference!

That's the price paid for having all your eggs in one spell level. A 5th level wizard has nine spell slots, but only two of them are 3rd level. A warlock also has two 3rd level slots, but lacks any weaker slots to devote to utility or weaker effects. If you saw a wizard use a 3rd level slot to cast shield, you'd think it was a waste of a spell slot. And it is. And that's the problem with warlocks. Even if you convince your DM two reliable short rests per day, you're coming out behind on slots (6 vs 9) and only come out ahead if you use all six slots to cast 3rd level equivalent effects. There is no incentive to ever use weaker effects (less bang for your buck) and to save your slots unless you know for sure you're getting an opportunity to short rest.

Which is why I feel warlock isn't really a caster. They are magical, but so is a monk. I'd like to see a warlock be a real caster. Or I would like to see it lose spellcasting and really lean into invocations.