D&D 5E Adapting the Warlock Chassis for other Classes

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
I think that's really the dividing line between those who like pact magic casting and those who prefer the standard 5e method of casting.

Some people say "If I cast fireball now, I won't be able to cast counterspell or shield later; that's so frustrating." And others say "I have to make a choice between fireball now or counterspelling later, that's an interesting tactical decision."
The first group are the people who want spellcasters to be overpowered. I don't really care very much about what they want spells to be--unless they're willing to accept spells being a hell of a lot weaker than they currently are.
 

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TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
What is there to misunderstand?

5.0 Warlock gets 4 Mystic Arcana. Taking that away and turning Mystic Arcana into an invocation means you are now--by the new standard--4 invocations in debt. The Playtest 5 rules add...one extra invocation.

How on Earth is that not "you have had 3 invocations taken away from you"?
I prefer the Laserllama Warlock approach, which is turning the 4 Mystic Arcanum slots into 4 invocation picks from a second pool of high-level only invocations. Getting a 6th-9th level spell and slot is just one of the choices available.
 

TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
The first group are the people who want spellcasters to be overpowered. I don't really care very much about what they want spells to be--unless they're willing to accept spells being a hell of a lot weaker than they currently are.
It's definitely a division between those who like a tactical challenge and those who like the power fantasy that casters offer, yes.
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
You have more spells to compensate, as I said, it was not about balance to begin with…

As to the video, Google found it. It has been a while, so if you are interested enough you will have to watch it ;)

I have watched the relevant part of that video.

Treantmonk agrees with me.

Maybe, if you're going to cite something as evidence for your claims, it would be helpful to actually check to make sure that it doesn't say exactly the opposite.

He liked other things about the One D&D warlock. He does not, at any point, deny that this portion is a major nerf (because it is, other than the Arcane spell list), and specifically calls out that it is the illusion of a choice at every level that the 5.0 Warlock would have gained Mystic Arcana originally.

Edit: Watching further...his claims about this being better spellcasting are dependent on my other criticisms of the existing Warlock. That it is punished by the way people actually play the game, and it shouldn't be--that changes needed to come in order to make the Warlock actually keep up with other spellcasters. So even on that front, he doesn't actually disagree with me. Yes, I agree that this Warlock casts more spells. It is also weaker, and is specifically punished in terms of Invocations. Just because you aren't starved for the invocations you critically need in order to make your core shtick better, doesn't mean you somehow aren't losing those.

It is a fair criticism that I was ignoring how the Playtest 5 Warlock effectively baked one invocation into each of the three reworked Pacts. But so does the Playtest 7 version--and that one does not punish people for failing to take Mystic Arcanum, so....yeah. Point stands.

I stand by what I said. The Playtest 5 Warlock was nerfed significantly in terms of invocations. It gained access to the Arcane spell list, which was a buff, but that "no class spell list" concept was a bad design idea (there's a reason it was abandoned.) It certainly would cast more spells per day--but unless you give up half your invocations, you massively lose out in power, AND you progress spells dramatically more slowly. Without Mystic Arcana auto-slotted at every chance, you literally do cast fewer spells per day until level 7, and don't cast more until the teens. Even with it, you'll be casting almost exclusively fewer, weaker spells until the high single digits.

Yes, there were parts that were better and parts that were worse. But by and large, other than the spells being daily and having the whole Arcane list? It was a massive nerf. And particularly in terms of the Invocations, it is not possible to argue that it wasn't a nerf. Treantmonk simply declared "well, you aren't losing any of the ones you NEED, so it's not a problem." It was a problem. And that's why P7 changed it.
 
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TwoSix

"Diegetics", by L. Ron Gygax
The problem is, the people who want the power fantasy that casters offer don't want non-casters to have their power fantasy.

I have a pretty dim view of that particular form of selfishness.
That's a more tangled discussion. I think there are absolutely people who want both wizards/casters to retain their full flexibility and power, but aren't against fighters/other martials getting a power boost to the same general level. But there are also absolutely people who want wizards to be superior, especially at higher levels, in the name of "simulation" or "tradition". (Not all simulationists, of course.)
 

EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
That's a more tangled discussion. I think there are absolutely people who want both wizards/casters to retain their full flexibility and power, but aren't against fighters/other martials getting a power boost to the same general level. But there are also absolutely people who want wizards to be superior, especially at higher levels, in the name of "simulation" or "tradition". (Not all simulationists, of course.)
The folks who support everyone getting their power fantasy should really speak up, then. Because I don't hear their voices. Like...ever. I hear the people crapping on non-caster power fantasies, while demanding caster power fantasies, on the regular.
 

The folks who support everyone getting their power fantasy should really speak up, then. Because I don't hear their voices. Like...ever. I hear the people crapping on non-caster power fantasies, while demanding caster power fantasies, on the regular.
Yo.

I just don't think that really involves changing any full casters much - wizards are plenty strong already. I'd say the same about warlocks for the most part (the Mystic Arcanum options are... lackluster) and sorcerers need more spells somehow, but otherwise ful casters are fine, power-wise.

It's the martials who need the boost, ie getting scaling Fighting Styles or maneuvers for all, or at least for everyone who doesn't have spells.

But that might make fighters not the simplest class, so we get shouted down.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
The folks who support everyone getting their power fantasy should really speak up, then. Because I don't hear their voices. Like...ever. I hear the people crapping on non-caster power fantasies, while demanding caster power fantasies, on the regular.
You don't read the right threads then. ;)

I see nothing but people complaining endlessly about how the Wizard is overpowered and that Martials pale by comparison, LOL!
 

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