D&D General Kobold Press Going Down a Dark Road

[mamba]

The playtest is mostly a marketing tool, but also a way for them to publicly ask all the new players since 5e started what they like. Shows that they care.

And what they care about.

Yes, the entire 5e audience, not just the ones that bought it in the first year (or the last three…). The audacity

 

[mamba]

I do discuss the settings. A lot. But it also matters how WotC chooses to express those settings if they release new material. And that ties right into the playtest.

I am not sure that settings are affected by 1DD vs 5e at all. At that point you might argue WotC’s general direction, but I do not see the playtest as relevant for this

 

[Micah Sweet]

I am not sure that settings are affected by 1DD vs 5e at all. At that point you might argue WotC’s general direction, but I do not see the playtest as relevant for this

You think rules aren't relevant to setting material?

 

[mamba]

I have mentioned my respect for 4e multiple times as a good game, despite my personal dislike.

ok, but you have not given me a measure, so this still is an ‘I like the design’. I am looking for an ‘objective’ measure, and as flawed as public approval may be, it beats a single person’s opinion as a measure

 

[mamba]

You think rules aren't relevant to setting material?

yes, pretty much. You can take all the 2e settings you like and update the stats to 5e and nothing about the setting changed

There are some limits like playing a resource starved Dark Sun campaign in 5e with Goodberries etc., but at the level of 5e vs 1DD I see no difference

 

[EzekielRaiden]

So there literally is no basis for what amounts to the following creative vision you are arguing for beyond... not what most people would like...

No, there is, you just stubbornly refuse to consider it.

There is a gap--a massive, MASSIVE gap--between:

"We do X thing because X thing gets the largest number of paying customers"

and

"We did X thing because it actually matches our explicitly-stated goals."

Avatar: the Last Airbender being about Asian ethnic groups is not what would get the largest number of paying customers in the United States. That would be having white characters. As has been the case for ages and ages, because white people are still narrowly the majority.

But the people who made Avatar didn't do that. They had a clear, specific vision, and they followed it. They were true to the art (to an almost ridiculous degree--all depicted writing in A:TLA is actual Chinese that says more or less what it should, and writing from ancient times is actual ancient Chinese, and say to the best of our knowledge more or less what it should.) They didn't pander. They didn't make something safe and inoffensive. They had a character suffer a psychotic break "on camera." They had legit actual horrible things in a kids' show.

And it was awesome.

That is a demonstration of what can be "good for the art," without being what is necessarily best for the company that made it. Making Avatar was a big risk--and it ended up paying off. Making Korra...well. It's a lot more controversial.

 

[Micah Sweet]

ok, but you have not given me a measure, so this still is an ‘I like the design’. I am looking for an ‘objective’ measure, and as flawed as public approval may be, it beats a single person’s opinion as a measure

Ok, 4e was a very clean system that provided consistent results from input. It provided a lot of class balance. It was easy to prep for as a GM. It's monsters were (eventually) fun and exciting to engage with.

 

[dave2008]

Ok, 4e was a very clean system that provided consistent results from input. It provided a lot of class balance. It was easy to prep for as a GM. It's monsters were (eventually) fun and exciting to engage with.

Isn't that still your opinion though? I know many people complained about those very things (except GM prep) in the old WotC 4e forums. These are not objective facts.

To be clear: I don't know that there are object facts about good RPG game design.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Depends on how you update them to 5e. Classes, subclasses, heritages, spells, feats, even some more basic rules like exhaustion, are all different in 1DD.

yes, pretty much. You can take all the 2e settings you like and update the stats to 5e and nothing about the setting changed

There are some limits like playing a resource starved Dark Sun campaign in 5e with Goodberries etc., but at the level of 5e vs 1DD I see no difference

 

[Micah Sweet]

Isn't that still your opinion though? I know many people complained about those very things (except GM prep) in the old WotC 4e forums. These are not objective facts.

To be clear: I don't know that there are object facts about good RPG game design.

Well, you may not prefer consistency (i often don't) but it looks like good game design to me. There is certainly more than one way to make a good game, I just don't think strict appeal to popularity is a good way to go.