D&D General What *is* D&D? (mild movie spoilers)

[Mort]

I'm not trying to change your mind, just responding to the ideas here:

In most respects I feel that Honor Among Thieves was more serious and less Guardians-like than I expected. There was definitely some verbal humor but a lot of the gonzo stuff I saw in the trailers turned out to be from backstory/exposition rather than from the mainline plot, which was played pretty straight.

Mainly though I want to comment on the magic level. There was kind of a weird disjunct where the protagonists have an expectation of high magic and casually talk of wizards, resurrections, "knowing a druid," etc., and yet regular people still stare in wide-eyed amazement at a cat turning into a human. It seemed inconsistent and a bit too... protagonist-centric(?) for my tastes.

I wonder if that was an intentional tonal disconnect?

I've had many, many DMs who try to play the, ordinary town with ordinary people yet the PCs suddenly experience high levels of magic completely inconsistent with that.

Or maybe it was a much simpler explanation, the background actors were told to act like they experienced wondrous magic and overdid it for the effects later added.

I enjoyed the movie but tonally I found that odd in the same way I found the casual horse thievery odd and somewhat alarming.

I laughed at that, because, again, WAY too many groups where casual thievery (horse and otherwise) was basically the norm.

 

[Undrave]

I don't think that's the main reason why they put those in, personally.

I think they put those two in, because by 2008, it was obvious D&D was missing key archetypical fantasy races which had become broadly popular (particularly in videogames) - specifically, Big Guy, Animal Person, and Devil-like Person.

Obviously, when deciding what races to use to fill those gaps, they picked ones they owned on the IP, on rather than drawing in ones they didn't own IP on.

That's a fair point, but they ALSO gave them major empires that were important to the backstory of the Points of Light setting.

I'm not trying to change your mind, just responding to the ideas here:

In most respects I feel that Honor Among Thieves was more serious and less Guardians-like than I expected. There was definitely some verbal humor but a lot of the gonzo stuff I saw in the trailers turned out to be from backstory/exposition rather than from the mainline plot, which was played pretty straight.

Yeah, the movie was funny because the characters are kind of bumbling silly people, but not because any of the stakes were particularly silly.

Mainly though I want to comment on the magic level. There was kind of a weird disjunct where the protagonists have an expectation of high magic and casually talk of wizards, resurrections, "knowing a druid," etc., and yet regular people still stare in wide-eyed amazement at a cat turning into a human. It seemed inconsistent and a bit too... protagonist-centric(?) for my tastes. I enjoyed the movie but tonally I found that odd in the same way I found the casual horse thievery odd and somewhat alarming.

I think the dumbfounded starring at the druid was mostly because she suddenly fell from their chimney without warning and just strode out. Druids are probably a rarity in the city so seeing one in person is probably more impressive than hearing about it. The people at the theatre were not impressed by Simon, for exemple.

And the casual horse thievery felt pretty in line with what we knew of the characters at the time.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Yeah, Doric falling down their chimney during mealtime was the issue, I thought, not what shape she was in at any point.

 

[Minigiant]

Okay, I get your point, but I disagree. An optional side quest that is one way out of many to solve a problem BY DEFINITION cannot be a railroad, no matter how deadly it happens to be.

P.S. The smart thing to do would have been to hither-thither right out of there the minute evil was smelled. They already had the helmet. There was no reason not to break contact and leave.

My point is that if there were low level the "optional" side quest felt forced.

Like the DM was feeding them lower bits and magic items in order to get the party to go along with his predetermined plot. The DM put making quest goals on a track the party packed the resources to leave without the DMs help. And when da party attempted to go in other directions off the railroad either the track went back into the plot that he or ehe created or they just hit a literal wall.

That's why I say it felt like high level PCs playing like low level PCs.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

That's a fair point, but they ALSO gave them major empires that were important to the backstory of the Points of Light setting.

Yeah and I think that was because they were up against a bunch of species with decades of various backstories, some trans-setting, too, and they wanted to give these guys something to be remembered for. I don't think it entirely worked, because people already loved Tieflings, and wanted the Planescape-style Tieflings, and those backstories didn't fit well with existing settings, but they did try.

 

[Azzy]

Still, even with all that, the Keep still resembles a medieval keep. No high level casters, magically augmented technology, or ye olde magic shoppes. However, if you step over the border of Karameikos (where KotB has been canonically placed in Mystara) and head to Glantri, you have a society that is more Hogwarts than Helms Deep.

It's worth noting that KotB wasn't even set in Mystara originally—it was retconned there in the BECMI Expert Set. Also of note, that The Isle of Dread (where the Known World/Mystara setting was introduced) already established Glantri as a magocrosy ruled by high-level magic-users.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

My point is that if there were low level the "optional" side quest felt forced.

Like the DM was feeding them lower bits and magic items in order to get the party to go along with his predetermined plot. The DM put making quest goals on a track the party packed the resources to leave without the DMs help. And when da party attempted to go in other directions off the railroad either the track went back into the plot that he or ehe created or they just hit a literal wall.

It's like we didn't even watch the same movie. The characters, out of nowhere, decided to send themselves on a sidequest to get a thing to let them negate a spell that was stopping them from getting through a door to steal the treasure to pay enough to make it worthwhile for Simon to help them get in contact with Kira and convince her to come home with Holga and Edgin, and hopefully to steal back the Tablet of Reawakening too.

That's almost entirely on the hypothetical players. All the DM has done are to say, "Kira doesn't want to come with you," and "the door is locked with a spell." The DM even made sure that getting past the door wasn't even necessary to get back Kira AND the treasure! Everything else is the DM improvising in response to player actions and intentions. "Is there any way for us to break the spell on the vault without gaining 300,000 XP first? Oh, okay, where would we find such an artifact? Can we at least find someone who might give us a clue?" Saying yes to players' attempts to think outside the box is the opposite of railroading.

At no point did the hypothetical DM block attempts to "get off the railroad." He even let both Infiltration plans succeed, and Plan B (the non-helmet plan) was the more successful one because it found the real treasure, not the decoy. Not a railroad.

 

[JohnSnow]

The film adventure actually feels considerably lower-magic than many D&D campaigns. They ride horses, they can't fly, and they can't really teleport beyond line of sight, and that only thanks to a magic item (which they're able to contrive to extend to "location they can't see" through a clever plan).

I'd place the bulk of the movie heroes at about 9th-level. Per dialogue, Simon's highest-level spell is Telekinesis. Doric Wildshapes shifts to human form only once during her escape, although she seems to have a Circle Feature that lets her switch forms (Circle of the Moon?). I actually think it's a pretty cool use of the ability, and the number of uses isn't wildly divergent from what the Channel Nature playtest document allows. Given her Tiny forms, she'd have to be 11th-level per the playtest, so maybe she is.

Edgin is the wildcard, as he comes off more like a rogue (or even a fighter) than a bard, since he doesn't cast any spells. But maybe his player is just really lazy and doesn't look at the spell list. I'm inclined to just say he's a rogue with a lute.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

Edgin is the wildcard, as he comes off more like a rogue (or even a fighter) than a bard, since he doesn't cast any spells. But maybe his player is just really lazy and doesn't look at the spell list. I'm inclined to just say he's a rogue with a lute.

I DM for two different people playing bards whom I have to regularly remind that they are spellcasters and that bardic inspiration exists.

 

[Minigiant]

It's like we didn't even watch the same movie. The characters, out of nowhere, decided to send themselves on a sidequest to get a thing to let them negate a spell that was stopping them from getting through a door to steal the treasure to pay enough to make it worthwhile for Simon to help them get in contact with Kira and convince her to come home with Holga and Edgin, and hopefully to steal back the Tablet of Reawakening too.

What I meant is the main quest,sidequest, and final battle were all beyond the resources and capabilities of the party, Their sucess hinged on a powerful DMNPC and a few clutch OP magic items.

As a whole the movie was lower magic and lower power (compared to their "level") than normal D&D.


A classic human, elf, dwarf, halfling, fighter, rogue, cleric, wizard party would have way more power, magic, fantasy races, and agency. And unlike a bard and a druid, the cleric and wizard don't have major alternate class features and tropes to hide their magic behind. A cleric and a wizard would be casting spells every other scene, A classic Tier 2 party would have more power, more magic, and more agency to get off the DM's tracks.