Mando season 3

[pukunui]

Yes, I have long said that the main issue with the prequels is the lack of editorial oversight. There was no one to tell George “no”, unlike with the OT.

I wonder if the Bad Batch should have its own thread, as we seem to be talking about it a lot in this one.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

They're not sentient in traditional sense though.

Why not? You're stating this as a foregone conclusion.

You couldn't let them vote for example for the sane reason your dog can't.

Because they can't read?

R2 is likely free willed C3-PO isn't.

In the very first movie, they both decide to go different directions in the Tattooine desert after an argument. Why is only one of them sentient?

 

[Zardnaar]

Why not? You're stating this as a foregone conclusion.

Because they can't read?

In the very first movie, they both decide to go different directions in the Tattooine desert after an argument. Why is only one of them sentient?

C3-PO is still contstrained by his programming. He's not independent. We see this on screen. He's following Leias instructions best as he can. Later on he refuses to BS the Ewoks when ordered to and I doubt he can engage in combat directly (unclear in canon tbf)

My personal theory EU/Canon some droids gave the capacity to evolve into true sentience. Basically they don't get memory wiped and can break their programming. Until they get to that point though they're essentially a smarter chat gpt.

You couldn't really let droids vote for example because they could be programmed to vote for whoever.

 

[Whizbang Dustyboots]

He's following Leias instructions best as he can.

So corporate middle managers aren't sentient?

Later on he refuses to BS the Ewoks when ordered to

Honest people aren't sentient?

and I doubt he can engage in combat directly (unclear in canon tbf)

Pacifists aren't sentient?

 

[Zardnaar]

So corporate middle managers aren't sentient?

Honest people aren't sentient?

Pacifists aren't sentient?

He can't extrapolate from Leias order R2 can.

Honest people gave a choice to be dishonest C3-P0 can't he doesn't have that choice he can't impersonate a deity.

Pacifists choose to be.... see where I'm going. I'm not sure if he could use a blaster on a sentient being in new canon old legends he can't.

Star Wars drouds don't have free will in most case's. They're essentially very advanced chat gpt.

My theory with R2 is essentially just what we see onscreen. He gaunt been memory wiped in decades and is self aware and can do whatever he wants it seems.

One can also compare with other franchises eg Data in Trek, Humans, Terminator, Geth in Mass Effect etc.

I admit I could be completely wrong here but that's how I see it. Can you trust most droids to independently vote for example? Consider how devastating that could be irl.

That's where I draw the line I suppose. Can the AI (any franchise) independently make their own choices with their own free will.

 

[Clint_L]

It is absolutely clear from watching Star Wars content that droids are sentient. They reason, they feel emotions including pain and fear, and they act independently, which is why restraining bolts were a plot device in the very first film. They are bought and sold in markets that are very reminiscent of the worst scene from our history. In a recent episode of Mandalorian, he purchases a droid and forces it into danger in spire of its clearly communicated terror. And he's the hero!

The comparison to pets voting is bizarre to me. Pets are not sentient beings - they can't reason or use language at anything like a human level, let alone exceed it. Absolutely sentient droids should be free and have the right to vote. If someone is using a program to force them to vote a certain way, then they aren't free and, if they are sentient, they are being assaulted the same way any other person would be in those circumstances.

R2D2 is not exceptional - there are many examples of droids clearly demonstrating their sentience and independence throughout Star Wars. Virtually every property has such a character - Andor, Rogue 1, Solo, the sequels.

And that's only one of the many slave narratives in Star Wars! The entire franchise has slavery as a frequent reference, yet seldom as anything more than background plot. The Republic was fine with slavery happening, to the extent that two Jedi took a child from his mother while leaving her enslaved!

You mention Star Trek, but the question of whether androids like Data, or later holograms like the Doctor, can be owned or should have rights like any other sentient being is explored at length in that franchise (and in both cases, decided in favour of the AIs being people). Terminator similarly explores questions of free will and AI. Battlestar Galactica, Westworld, and most other franchises that heavily feature AIs pay serious attention to this problem. Star Wars just hand waves it.

To enjoy Star Wars, I basically just try not to think about the slavery subtexts. I am well aware that the franchise often has minor characters offer up justifications to try to argue that the obvious slavery isn't really a problem. These are not convincing arguments.

 

[Zardnaar]

It is absolutely clear from watching Star Wars content that droids are sentient. They reason, they feel emotions including pain and fear, and they act independently, which is why restraining bolts were a plot device in the very first film. They are bought and sold in markets that are very reminiscent of the worst scene from our history. In a recent episode of Mandalorian, he purchases a droid and forces it into danger in spire of its clearly communicated terror. And he's the hero!

The comparison to pets voting is bizarre to me. Pets are not sentient beings - they can't reason or use language at anything like a human level, let alone exceed it. Absolutely sentient droids should be free and have the right to vote. If someone is using a program to force them to vote a certain way, then they aren't free and, if they are sentient, they are being assaulted the same way any other person would be in those circumstances.

R2D2 is not exceptional - there are many examples of droids clearly demonstrating their sentience and independence throughout Star Wars. Virtually every property has such a character - Andor, Rogue 1, Solo, the sequels.

And that's only one of the many slave narratives in Star Wars! The entire franchise has slavery as a frequent reference, yet seldom as anything more than background plot. The Republic was fine with slavery happening, to the extent that two Jedi took a child from his mother while leaving her enslaved!

You mention Star Trek, but the question of whether androids like Data, or later holograms like the Doctor, can be owned or should have rights like any other sentient being is explored at length in that franchise (and in both cases, decided in favour of the AIs being people). Terminator similarly explores questions of free will and AI. Battlestar Galactica, Westworld, and most other franchises that heavily feature AIs pay serious attention to this problem. Star Wars just hand waves it.

To enjoy Star Wars, I basically just try not to think about the slavery subtexts. I am well aware that the franchise often has minor characters offer up justifications to try to argue that the obvious slavery isn't really a problem. These are not convincing arguments.

Star Wars probably won't go there but it's droids are borderline. In other franchises they're between robots and full synthetics.

So Star Wars could plausibly do an AI rebellion. Theres enough dtoids tgat have teached the point to start asking questions. Some definitely are there.

The difference between a machine and synthetic to me us the programing ymmv.

A slave had free will most droids don't. The consequences of a slaves defiance might be terrible (disobey, flee, strike the master) but they have that choice.

 

[MarkB]

C3-PO is still contstrained by his programming. He's not independent. We see this on screen. He's following Leias instructions best as he can. Later on he refuses to BS the Ewoks when ordered to and I doubt he can engage in combat directly (unclear in canon tbf)

Threepio respects his programming, he's not bound by it. That's his personality - he tends to respect laws and thinks there's a right way of doing things.

Every time he flat-out refuses to do as he's told because it would go against his programming, it takes only a little more persuasion or a slightly more immediate sense of danger before he goes ahead and does it anyway. The only exception is in Rise of Skywalker.

A slave had free will most droids don't. The consequences of a slaves defiance might be terrible (disobey, flee, strike the master) but they have that choice.

What is free will in this context though, and how do droids come to develop it? Is a droid who lacks free will non-sentient? Or are they fully sentient, but bound by chains that are within their head instead of external, still wishing for freedom but unable to grasp it?

 

[Zardnaar]

Threepio respects his programming, he's not bound by it. That's his personality - he tends to respect laws and thinks there's a right way of doing things.

Every time he flat-out refuses to do as he's told because it would go against his programming, it takes only a little more persuasion or a slightly more immediate sense of danger before he goes ahead and does it anyway. The only exception is in Rise of Skywalker.

What is free will in this context though, and how do droids come to develop it? Is a droid who lacks free will non-sentient? Or are they fully sentient, but bound by chains that are within their head instead of external, still wishing for freedom but unable to grasp it?

Well that's the kicker. Very common trope in Sci fi. As I said an AI rebellion is very plausible in the Star Wars universe old legends material did semi explore it.

Drouds are very borderline some individual droids have developed full sentience IMHO.

Using other franchises for example Skynet is free walked the average T-800 are not (even in T2) but they're on the path. Once they can think for themselves independently of programming or are sufficiently advanced from the get go they're no longer artificially intelligence they've developed true sentience. Programmed=machine, free willed they've become a being and there's a transition middle R2 is definitely there if not at the end, C3-P0 on the path but not quite there.

Old joke in our Star Wars RPG group. R2 is the king of all droids.

I don't think Star Wars will go to deep though as it's the most over used tropebin Sci fi and SW leans more towards space opera. I would go there in an RPG game. Legends supports it canon not so much they haven't got around to it yet.

 

[Ryujin]

One can also compare with other franchises eg Data in Trek, Humans, Terminator, Geth in Mass Effect etc.

... the Minions in "Despicable me"...

They behave in similar ways, and yet I would say they're sentient.