Picard Season 3

[MarkB]

In the Old space shuttle the cockpit was an ejection module.

The shuttle had an extendable rail system built into the airlock, which would theoretically bring astronauts clear of the wing if they needed to bail out, but that was with them manually jumping out. I don't recall anything about a working version of the space shuttle having the capability to jettison the entire cockpit.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

The shuttle had an extendable rail system built into the airlock, which would theoretically bring astronauts clear of the wing if they needed to bail out, but that was with them manually jumping out. I don't recall anything about a working version of the space shuttle having the capability to jettison the entire cockpit.

There wasn't a working version, that's correct.

After Challenger they considered it as one of the potential options, but there was no good way to make it work.

As for Section 31, that show needs to DIAF, frankly.

It's the opposite of what Star Trek needs at this point. It's the opposite of the tone and point of Star Trek. The only way I could see it working is if it rapidly became about taking down Section 31, once and for all. Unfortunately it seems like a significant minority of the writers are confused as hell and think Section 31 is Starfleet's equivalent of The Culture's "Contact", but it absolutely is not. Contact is much more straightforward and isn't self-interested, nor gleefully evil, whereas Section 31 is absolutely both. Nor does Contact act unless absolutely necessary, and usually not against The Culture itself, but rather external entities interacting with The Culture. Whereas Section 31 continually attempts to manipulate Starfleet and the Federation, even there are no exigent circumstances, and is quite happy to act against Starfleet or the Federation if it's beneficial to Section 31's goals - which seem nebulous at best. On top of all this, Section 31 seems to have a "mad science" division and to continually work on "mad science" stuff as a major part of its work, whereas Contact just does not. Period. Thus in practice Contact is aligned with Starfleet Intelligence, whereas Section 31 is more aligned with the CIA, particularly the CIA at its worst in the 1950s through 1980s. We don't need a show de facto glorifying the goddamn 20th century CIA, that was one of the scummiest intelligence organisations the West has ever produced, which is saying something. We double don't need it at the expense of Star Trek, which hard-opposed those kind of shenanigans.

 

[Ryujin]

There wasn't a working version, that's correct.

After Challenger they considered it as one of the potential options, but there was no good way to make it work.

As for Section 31, that show needs to DIAF, frankly.

It's the opposite of what Star Trek needs at this point. It's the opposite of the tone and point of Star Trek. The only way I could see it working is if it rapidly became about taking down Section 31, once and for all. Unfortunately it seems like a significant minority of the writers are confused as hell and think Section 31 is Starfleet's equivalent of The Culture's "Contact", but it absolutely is not. Contact is much more straightforward and isn't self-interested, nor gleefully evil, whereas Section 31 is absolutely both. Nor does Contact act unless absolutely necessary, and usually not against The Culture itself, but rather external entities interacting with The Culture. Whereas Section 31 continually attempts to manipulate Starfleet and the Federation, even there are no exigent circumstances, and is quite happy to act against Starfleet or the Federation if it's beneficial to Section 31's goals - which seem nebulous at best. On top of all this, Section 31 seems to have a "mad science" division and to continually work on "mad science" stuff as a major part of its work, whereas Contact just does not. Period. Thus in practice Contact is aligned with Starfleet Intelligence, whereas Section 31 is more aligned with the CIA, particularly the CIA at its worst in the 1950s through 1980s. We don't need a show de facto glorifying the goddamn 20th century CIA, that was one of the scummiest intelligence organisations the West has ever produced, which is saying something. We double don't need it at the expense of Star Trek, which hard-opposed those kind of shenanigans.

I'm definitely not the target market for a "Section 31" show, unless it's a spoof. I would gladly watch them constantly being foiled, by upstanding Star Fleet personnel, at their evil missions. Bonus points if they're based in a massive volcano on some backwater planet.

Star Trek can ask morally ambiguous questions. It can plumb the grey areas. It shouldn't be about glorifying those things. Quite the contrary. It should stay pretty close to White Hat/Black Hat in order to maintain it's DNA.

 

[glass]

I'm definitely not the target market for a "Section 31" show, unless it's a spoof. I would gladly watch them constantly being foiled, by upstanding Star Fleet personnel, at their evil missions.

It does not need to be a spoof to be about honest Starfleet officers foiling Section 31's machinations, as long as the writers remember that s.31 are the villains. But I do worry about their name being the show title might lead to the writers forgetting that.

It could be fine, good even, but I am concerned that it will be exactly as you and @Ruin Explorer fear. So I will be quite happy if it continues to be vapourware.

 

[cranberry]

I always thought that section 31's mission was to protect the federation at all costs. From that standpoint, they are the good guys.

Their actions can be problematic because they aren't accountable to anyone.

I would like to see a S31 show where the protagonist struggles to balance their mission with with their ethics.

 

[trappedslider]

Personally and this is just me but I'd be interested to see what it takes to keep the Utopia, Utopia.

Gives off AC vibes: "we work in the dark to serve the light" or

"There's a point, far out there when the structures fail you, and the rules aren't weapons anymore, they're... shackles letting the bad guy get ahead. One day... you may face such a moment of crisis. And in that moment, I hope you have a friend like I did, to plunge their hands into the filth so that you can keep yours clean!"

 

[Ryujin]

I always thought that section 31's mission was to protect the federation at all costs. From that standpoint, they are the good guys.

Their actions can be problematic because they aren't accountable to anyone.

I would like to see a S31 show where the protagonist struggles to balance their mission with with their ethics.

That's OK for an episode (Data understanding that great harm could come from not eliminating the Collector. Sisko bringing the Romulans into the Dominion War.), not as a series. The Federation works precisely because people are trying to improve themselves and, thereby, everyone's lives.

 

[glass]

I always thought that section 31's mission was to protect the federation at all costs. From that standpoint, they are the good guys.

That is what they say there mission is. What they actually do is imperil the Federation over and over again (with a side order nearly wiping out all life in the galaxy at least once).

I do not want HMMHC to be justified in any media, and least of all in Star Trek.

I would like to see a S31 show where the protagonist struggles to balance their mission with with their ethics.

Real Starfleet officers occasionally struggle to balance their mission with their ethics. Section 31 have never shown any sign of having any ethics to struggle with.

 

[cranberry]

Real Starfleet officers occasionally struggle to balance their mission with their ethics. Section 31 have never shown any sign of having any ethics to struggle with.

There is a first time for everything.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

always thought that section 31's mission was to protect the federation at all costs. From that standpoint, they are the good guys.

But the last time that was even arguably true was in Deep Space 9 in the 1990s. So coming up on 25 years ago. A quarter-century.

Since then, Section 31 have been smug CIA types who aren't acting only in desperate need, but constantly and ineptly manipulating people and situations, constantly working on totally unnecessary and unethical "mad science" projects (like MKULTRA in the real world, but much, much worse and more Nazi-esque), and totally failing to deal with all the biggest threats to the Federation, which end up having to be dealt with by real Starfleet.

I would like to see a S31 show where the protagonist struggles to balance their mission with with their ethics.

Section 31, as presented for the last nearly 25 years, don't have any ethics. At all. They don't even consistently have the goal of "protect the Federation", because they often engage in behaviour that is hard at-odds with that - again, much like the CIA and the USA.

"There's a point, far out there when the structures fail you, and the rules aren't weapons anymore, they're... shackles letting the bad guy get ahead. One day... you may face such a moment of crisis. And in that moment, I hope you have a friend like I did, to plunge their hands into the filth so that you can keep yours clean!"

This sort of Hard Man Making Hard Decisions trash, which has absolutely no basis in historical reality, note, it's purely a macho right-wing anti-utopian fantasy for some men (and I do say men - it is a very male fantasy that you "need" to be wickedly evil to "protect good"). It's literally the excuse given by war criminals - "We had to destroy the village to save it" and so on.

Remember "Batman's a fascist!"? The fact that they had Gordon coming out with this crap in the extremely demented The Dark Knight Rises is a big part of that. TDKR took a bizarrely political turn given the first movie was classic fantastical Batman, the second movie was basically a crime movie with a Batman-ish twist (much like The Batman) and only hinted at this kind of idiocy. It's a very political and very solidly right-wing movie, and that quote from it absolutely sums up its attitudes. That and the truly insane scene where cops armed only with melee weapons sprint directly into assault rifle fire (do I even need to get into that lol).

If you're trying to a utopian (and essentially leftist) show like Star Trek into a macho anti-utopian right-wing fantasy, you've screwed up bigtime. Especially as Star Trek is focused on ethics and moral dilemmas.

Personally and this is just me but I'd be interested to see what it takes to keep the Utopia, Utopia.

So make a show about that, that isn't essentially a right-wing macho fantasy exactly like the whole made-up "sheepdog" bollocks they teach cops in the US that makes them vastly more likely to kill people.