Picard Season 3

[Zardnaar]

But the last time that was even arguably true was in Deep Space 9 in the 1990s. So coming up on 25 years ago. A quarter-century.

Since then, Section 31 have been smug CIA types who aren't acting only in desperate need, but constantly and ineptly manipulating people and situations, constantly working on totally unnecessary and unethical "mad science" projects (like MKULTRA in the real world, but much, much worse and more Nazi-esque), and totally failing to deal with all the biggest threats to the Federation, which end up having to be dealt with by real Starfleet.

Section 31, as presented for the last nearly 25 years, don't have any ethics. At all. They don't even consistently have the goal of "protect the Federation", because they often engage in behaviour that is hard at-odds with that - again, much like the CIA and the USA.

This sort of Hard Man Making Hard Decisions trash, which has absolutely no basis in historical reality, note, it's purely a macho right-wing anti-utopian fantasy for some men (and I do say men - it is a very male fantasy that you "need" to be wickedly evil to "protect good"). It's literally the excuse given by war criminals - "We had to destroy the village to save it" and so on.

Remember "Batman's a fascist!"? The fact that they had Gordon coming out with this crap in the extremely demented The Dark Knight Rises is a big part of that. TDKR took a bizarrely political turn given the first movie was classic fantastical Batman, the second movie was basically a crime movie with a Batman-ish twist (much like The Batman) and only hinted at this kind of idiocy. It's a very political and very solidly right-wing movie, and that quote from it absolutely sums up its attitudes. That and the truly insane scene where cops armed only with melee weapons sprint directly into assault rifle fire (do I even need to get into that lol).

If you're trying to a utopian (and essentially leftist) show like Star Trek into a macho anti-utopian right-wing fantasy, you've screwed up bigtime. Especially as Star Trek is focused on ethics and moral dilemmas.

So make a show about that, that isn't essentially a right-wing macho fantasy exactly like the whole made-up "sheepdog" bollocks they teach cops in the US that makes them vastly more likely to kill people.

Hard decisions are one thing sometimes they get it wrong.

Section 31 doesn't even bother lookin at other options. They're kinda cartoon levels stupid though.

A darker Star trek show why not? It's not like Star Trek tends to be very good until season 3 anyway (DS9 an exception).

Maybe if they tried really hard they could make a decent season 1 post 1987.

 

[MarkB]

I always thought that section 31's mission was to protect the federation at all costs. From that standpoint, they are the good guys.

Not really. The Federation is founded upon principles. It's meant to be protected by means within those principles, not at any cost. Otherwise it isn't worth protecting.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

Section 31 doesn't even bother lookin at other options. They're kinda cartoon levels stupid though.

You say cartoon, but they're just a slightly exaggerated version of the real-world CIA in the 20th century in post-DS9 portrayals. But that's the problem - the CIA were pure evil, and not even genuinely helping America (nor is Section 31 helping the Federation) - indeed, they basically created half the problems America had to deal with.

And you can't have a cartoonishly evil organisation being supposed to be "the good guys using dark methods".

What's funny is, even right-wing shows have realized this. It's a common theme in 24, for example. 24 is extremely right-wing, as a show, but even there, people who operate like Section 31 or the CIA are "the baddies". People who don't even bother looking at other options and are always trying to make things match their goals at all costs. Jack Bauer ended up shooting an awful lot of people like that in certain seasons.

A darker Star trek show why not? It's not like Star Trek tends to be very good until season 3 anyway (DS9 an exception).

Because we've got a lot of "darker" SF shows, and Trek is the only vaguely utopian one out there?

I mean that's genuinely the answer. There's no shortage of "dark" SF shows. The Expanse was a prime example, with the "good guys" horrifically torturing a dude in episode 1 (and not even getting anything useful) and no doubt it'll be back eventually (but the new series would feature a time-skip and new characters and so on, which is probably why they didn't go straight into it).

Trek was started as an explicitly utopian show. That's literally the purpose. The only other show like it is The Orville, which is possibly even better at it than Trek, but likely cancelled (sadly), and was directly inspired by Trek.

Maybe if they tried really hard they could make a decent season 1 post 1987.

They did.

Have you not seen Strange New Worlds? It's by far the best season 1 of any Trek show.

 

[cranberry]

Not really. The Federation is founded upon principles. It's meant to be protected by means within those principles, not at any cost. Otherwise it isn't worth protecting.

According to Memory Alpha, bending the rules was built into the plan.

Article 14, Section 31 of the Charter made allowances for bending Starfleet regulations in times of extraordinary threat. This section was cited as the foundation for Section 31 even into the late 24th century.

Starfleet Charter

The Starfleet Charter was the legal document which established Starfleet during the late 2120s or early 2130s. The phrase "to boldly go where no man has gone before" originated in the Starfleet Charter. (Star Trek V: The Final Frontier) Article 14, Section 31 of the Charter made allowances for...

memory-alpha.fandom.com

 

[Zardnaar]

You say cartoon, but they're just a slightly exaggerated version of the real-world CIA in the 20th century in post-DS9 portrayals. But that's the problem - the CIA were pure evil, and not even genuinely helping America (nor is Section 31 helping the Federation) - indeed, they basically created half the problems America had to deal with.

And you can't have a cartoonishly evil organisation being supposed to be "the good guys using dark methods".

What's funny is, even right-wing shows have realized this. It's a common theme in 24, for example. 24 is extremely right-wing, as a show, but even there, people who operate like Section 31 or the CIA are "the baddies". People who don't even bother looking at other options and are always trying to make things match their goals at all costs. Jack Bauer ended up shooting an awful lot of people like that in certain seasons.

Because we've got a lot of "darker" SF shows, and Trek is the only vaguely utopian one out there?

I mean that's genuinely the answer. There's no shortage of "dark" SF shows. The Expanse was a prime example, with the "good guys" horrifically torturing a dude in episode 1 (and not even getting anything useful) and no doubt it'll be back eventually (but the new series would feature a time-skip and new characters and so on, which is probably why they didn't go straight into it).

Trek was started as an explicitly utopian show. That's literally the purpose. The only other show like it is The Orville, which is possibly even better at it than Trek, but likely cancelled (sadly), and was directly inspired by Trek.

They did.

Have you not seen Strange New Worlds? It's by far the best season 1 of any Trek show.

I gave seen it. It was Good. By Star Trek standards that's great.

You're gatekeeping btw. I kean more towards Star Wars but they've tried multiple genre blending/tones over the years.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

You're gatekeeping btw.

How so?

 

[Zardnaar]

How so?

Declearing Trek can only be this vs that.

If Trek or Star Wars or whatever wants to do something different go for it the proo is in the pudding.

Federation won't last forever.

 

[Hussar]

Well Disco very much tried the whole darker Trek thing. As well as later seasons of Enterprise.

Given the HUGE number of dark SF shows on the market, having a well lit, hopeful, full of actual visible spectrum lighting without every scene filmed in a bloody broom closet, would be a refreshing change.

Seriously what’s up with every at show being filmed at half light?

 

[Mort]

Seclear8ng Trek can only be this vs that.

If Trek or Star Wars or whatever wants to do something different go for it the proo is in the pudding.

Federation won't last forever.

Gatekeeping is when someone takes it upon themselves to decide who has access to a community or identity.

Saying Star Trek shouldn't glorify "ends justifies the means..." Is an opinion on what Star Trek embodies - not gatekeeping.

 

[trappedslider]

But the last time that was even arguably true was in Deep Space 9 in the 1990s. So coming up on 25 years ago. A quarter-century.

Since then, Section 31 have been smug CIA types who aren't acting only in desperate need, but constantly and ineptly manipulating people and situations, constantly working on totally unnecessary and unethical "mad science" projects (like MKULTRA in the real world, but much, much worse and more Nazi-esque), and totally failing to deal with all the biggest threats to the Federation, which end up having to be dealt with by real Starfleet.

Section 31, as presented for the last nearly 25 years, don't have any ethics. At all. They don't even consistently have the goal of "protect the Federation", because they often engage in behaviour that is hard at-odds with that - again, much like the CIA and the USA.

This sort of Hard Man Making Hard Decisions trash, which has absolutely no basis in historical reality, note, it's purely a macho right-wing anti-utopian fantasy for some men (and I do say men - it is a very male fantasy that you "need" to be wickedly evil to "protect good"). It's literally the excuse given by war criminals - "We had to destroy the village to save it" and so on.

Remember "Batman's a fascist!"? The fact that they had Gordon coming out with this crap in the extremely demented The Dark Knight Rises is a big part of that. TDKR took a bizarrely political turn given the first movie was classic fantastical Batman, the second movie was basically a crime movie with a Batman-ish twist (much like The Batman) and only hinted at this kind of idiocy. It's a very political and very solidly right-wing movie, and that quote from it absolutely sums up its attitudes. That and the truly insane scene where cops armed only with melee weapons sprint directly into assault rifle fire (do I even need to get into that lol).

If you're trying to a utopian (and essentially leftist) show like Star Trek into a macho anti-utopian right-wing fantasy, you've screwed up bigtime. Especially as Star Trek is focused on ethics and moral dilemmas.

So make a show about that, that isn't essentially a right-wing macho fantasy exactly like the whole made-up "sheepdog" bollocks they teach cops in the US that makes them vastly more likely to kill people.

so, basically in your opinioned shared by others there's no place in star trek for a shadowy organization that honestly answers to no one, and does what it does in it's own twisted vision of the greater good. We just accept that in the future of star trek that the federation utopia is easy to keep (at least in the core,DS9 proved else where it wasn't as pretty) without people taking some sort of measures to make sure it stays that way?

I'm sorry but i have trouble buying into that. Utopia Justifies The Means, I did what i had to do ,The Unfettered all tropes that apply to Star trek and Section 31.

I think it's totally plausible for an organization like the federation to have it's own off the official books group that does the dirty deeds so that others can sleep soundly.