D&D (2024) One D&D Overly Complex

[Belen]

Some of the weapon properties are very fiddly in play and if released as is I could see them being annoying to track. Namely sap, slow, and vex. Those properties inflict "until start/end of your next turn" types of conditions, plus not only that but also "next attack" -- that's a double whammy of fiddly tracking. The issue here is that these properties are applied on every single attack, which is often 2 attacks, sometimes 3 or even 4 (even in tier 2 with action surge or haste).

Imagine a party with two PCs with access to mastery properties, and they use Sap and Slow weapons. Imagine a fight against 6 enemies, and in one round PC1 inflicts Sap on two enemies, and PC2 inflicts Slow on three enemies, two of which also have Sap. Now you're tracking:

• 1 enemy has disadvantage on their next attack (not all attacks!) but made before the start of PC1's next turn
• 1 enemy has -10 speed until the start of PC2's next turn
• 2 enemies have disadvantage on their next attack made before the start of PC1's next turn, but also -10 speed until the start of PC2's next turn (note the two different PCs, aka two different initiatives)

And variations of this could happen every single turn. It's rather fiddly.

The other properties are fine.

Edit: Actually Topple is a bit annoying as well because you're rolling a saving throw with every successful attack. It's a pretty big increase in the number of rolls, which slows down play.

These rules seem to be made to use a VTT and DnD Beyond. The software tracks it. It will not be fun.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I have had problems with players in current 5e who cannot make a decision and barely learn how their class works. Adding more complexity will be a nightmare.

Well, you can always stick with Original Flavor WotC. Seems like that's the answer whenever anyone has a problem with something new.

 

[Belen]

Complexity during a session is where more substantive problems come in... because the game slows down as players try to understand what they are doing and what they have available. And a player who doesn't have the Beautiful Mind-set that can look at a character sheet and find anything and everything at the drop of a hat... will be the one for whom less complexity is a godsend. If the game can make the moment-to-moment game circle snap into place nice and easy, it will make the overall experience probably better for everyone at the table. And that's where the design comes in.

That all being said... I also know that there's a lot of complexity during a session that can be reduced if the DM puts in a little elbow grease on behalf of their players. Whether it's recommending better class options during character creation, or manually writing up character sheets and/or spell sheets for them that remove all the extraneous crap and put the important stuff front and center... a DM can go a long way to make a player's experience better and faster. They just have to put in a little extra work.

I have 2 kids and a job. I would not have time to do extra prep to take care of the players so that they can handle in-session complexity.

I do like how you explain it and this is exactly my issue. The rules are going to add a lot of in-session complexity. It will slow the game down, especially if you have inexperienced players or those who just do not learn their class.

 

[MichaelSomething]

I know you were being facetious with your response, but one thing we do all need to bear in mind is that there are also two different times we
That all being said... I also know that there's a lot of complexity during a session that can be reduced if the DM puts in a little elbow grease on behalf of their players. Whether it's recommending better class options during character creation, or manually writing up character sheets and/or spell sheets for them that remove all the extraneous crap and put the important stuff front and center... a DM can go a long way to make a player's experience better and faster. They just have to put in a little extra work.

https://www.amazon.com/Spellbook-Cards-Arcane-Dungeons-Drangons/dp/0786966548/

 

[deganawida]

These rules seem to be made to use a VTT and DnD Beyond. The software tracks it. It will not be fun.

Exactly.

 

[DEFCON 1]

I have 2 kids and a job. I would not have time to do extra prep to take care of the players so that they can handle in-session complexity.

I do like how you explain it and this is exactly my issue. The rules are going to add a lot of in-session complexity. It will slow the game down, especially if you have inexperienced players or those who just do not learn their class.

You say that... but what's ultimately going to be better for you? Spending an hour at some point during the off-week typing up an "attack sheet" that condenses all of the information for your inexperienced player down into a single clean manageable page of info where they can everything quickly... or letting them just continue to use all the regular materials and then during the game wait for them to flip through 4 to 6 pages of character sheets trying to find the bits and bobs they need to do their turn?

No one will be able to answer that but you. But whatever your answer ultimately is... it should not and will not have any influence on WotC's choices of making the rules more or less complex. Inexperienced players playing won't mean they will turn off any and all complexity, and experienced players playing won't mean they can make archaic and lumbering systems that those select few will still be able to play like a concert violin because they just have that uncanny ability to process it all immediately.

 

[DEFCON 1]

https://www.amazon.com/Spellbook-Cards-Arcane-Dungeons-Drangons/dp/0786966548/

Have you seen the write-ups for a lot of the spells that occur in that deck, LOL? The write-ups that are also in the PHB? There's a lot of extraneous info in them that a player doesn't need in the moment when at the table, so cut and pasting a cleaner, faster spell block out of the write-up is still a pretty good idea if your player will parse it easier at the table.

 

[MNblockhead]

I don't mind complexity in character creation and leveling up or in weapon selection as long as once it is on the character sheet it is easy to run.

Some classes are more complex to run than other. The wizard is always going to have a lot more choices on what do and some spells are almost mini-rules systems. But that's okay and good for players who like that and put in the time to know their character and its abilities. If they are slowing down the game, they should be playing a different class perhaps.

Where complexity detracts the most from the game for me as a DM is tracking effects, especially in combat. When my initiative and round tracker starts looking like a gantt chart, that's more complexity than I want in a game I'm running. VTT software can make this easier (though most don't do a great job at this now), I would rather status effects and conditions not get too fiddly.

 

[Flamestrike]

For example, I have an issue with 5e combat taking too long.

Combats IME tend to take around 5-10 minutes to resolve. 15 minutes max.

My players only get 6 or so seconds (I start a slow count back from 6, a few seconds after telling the player its their turn) to declare to me what they're doing when their turn comes up, or their character takes the Dodge action and their turn ends though so there is that.

I've found since implementing that rule, phones go away and players eyes remain on the table and on each other, and the planning of 'what do I do when its my turn' happens during the rest of the round.

 

[Quickleaf]

Combats IME tend to take around 5-10 minutes to resolve. 15 minutes max.

My players only get 6 or so seconds (I start a slow count back from 6, a few seconds after telling the player its their turn) to declare to me what they're doing when their turn comes up, or their character takes the Dodge action and their turn ends though so there is that.

I've found since implementing that rule, phones go away and players eyes remain on the table and on each other, and the planning of 'what do I do when its my turn' happens during the rest of the round.

Sounds like that works for you. That's great. I'm really impressed that was the only thing you needed to tweak to keep your combats to 15 minutes or less.

Among the several groups I've GMed for, my experience was quite different from yours.