D&D (2024) One D&D Overly Complex

[Krachek]

Complexity is a thing, managing it is another.
Complexity is not a problem when the flow of the game is fluid and cool.
For sure during a fight players will have more decision points.
Each barb and fighter attack will have some effect, Warlock, sorcerer will have more spells to manage, wizards will have various version of the same spells. All of this is fun! If players manage it with ease.

 

[Teemu]

Some of the weapon properties are very fiddly in play and if released as is I could see them being annoying to track. Namely sap, slow, and vex. Those properties inflict "until start/end of your next turn" types of conditions, plus not only that but also "next attack" -- that's a double whammy of fiddly tracking. The issue here is that these properties are applied on every single attack, which is often 2 attacks, sometimes 3 or even 4 (even in tier 2 with action surge or haste).

Imagine a party with two PCs with access to mastery properties, and they use Sap and Slow weapons. Imagine a fight against 6 enemies, and in one round PC1 inflicts Sap on two enemies, and PC2 inflicts Slow on three enemies, two of which also have Sap. Now you're tracking:

• 1 enemy has disadvantage on their next attack (not all attacks!) but made before the start of PC1's next turn
• 1 enemy has -10 speed until the start of PC2's next turn
• 2 enemies have disadvantage on their next attack made before the start of PC1's next turn, but also -10 speed until the start of PC2's next turn (note the two different PCs, aka two different initiatives)

And variations of this could happen every single turn. It's rather fiddly.

The other properties are fine.

Edit: Actually Topple is a bit annoying as well because you're rolling a saving throw with every successful attack. It's a pretty big increase in the number of rolls, which slows down play.

 

[Krachek]

There is also mastery like cleave that will go meeh as the PC level.
Cleave, dealing 8 at main target and 3 at an adjacent one is cool at level 1.
Later on PC will deal 20-30-40 damage at main target and still 5 at cleave target. Preety meeh.

Complexity should pay back on a reliable way.

 

[MichaelSomething]

I know an easy way to remove complexity! Let's cut fifty spells from the PHB!

 

[The Shadow]

And in another thread OneD&D is being called too simple. You really can't please everybody.

 

[mellored]

There is also mastery like cleave that will go meeh as the PC level.
Cleave, dealing 8 at main target and 3 at an adjacent one is cool at level 1.
Later on PC will deal 20-30-40 damage at main target and still 5 at cleave target. Preety meeh.

Complexity should pay back on a reliable way.

For the fighter 13+, you can just use cleave once, and do something else the other attacks.

For the barbarian, you add rage bonus to cleave (unless I am reading it wrong).

So that is some scaling.

 

[niklinna]

I know an easy way to remove complexity! Let's cut fifty spells from the PHB!

 

[Vaalingrade]

I know an easy way to remove complexity! Let's cut fifty spells from the PHB!

It's like I always say: delete the wizard.

 

[rules.mechanic]

In the final version, they've said they'll suggest defaults for nearly everything. So the complexity might only be there for those who want it.

 

[Quickleaf]

Some of the weapon properties are very fiddly in play and if released as is I could see them being annoying to track. Namely sap, slow, and vex. Those properties inflict "until start/end of your next turn" types of conditions, plus not only that but also "next attack" -- that's a double whammy of fiddly tracking. The issue here is that these properties are applied on every single attack, which is often 2 attacks, sometimes 3 or even 4 (even in tier 2 with action surge or haste).

Imagine a party with two PCs with access to mastery properties, and they use Sap and Slow weapons. Imagine a fight against 6 enemies, and in one round PC1 inflicts Sap on two enemies, and PC2 inflicts Slow on three enemies, two of which also have Sap. Now you're tracking:

• 1 enemy has disadvantage on their next attack (not all attacks!) but made before the start of PC1's next turn
• 1 enemy has -10 speed until the start of PC2's next turn
• 2 enemies have disadvantage on their next attack made before the start of PC1's next turn, but also -10 speed until the start of PC2's next turn (note the two different PCs, aka two different initiatives)

And variations of this could happen every single turn. It's rather fiddly.

The other properties are fine.

Edit: Actually Topple is a bit annoying as well because you're rolling a saving throw with every successful attack. It's a pretty big increase in the number of rolls, which slows down play.

Thanks for articulating that so clearly, Teemu. I was trying to get there, but the words weren't coming together for me. Yeah, at least looking at it on paper, I totally agree this is a "red flag" for me that (if I get the time to playtest) I'll be keeping an eye on.