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D&D (2024) One D&D Overly Complex

OB1

Jedi Master
From what I've seen in the playtest so far, it feels like the complexity is there for those who want to dive into it, but for those who don't, following the suggested build guidelines that will be in the PHB will allow a player who doesn't want to engage at that level to do so and be plenty effective. I also think the new level 1-3 progression does a better job at easing new players into the game than the 2014 rules did.
 

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I'm trying to hang out with my friends and not harass them for wanting to do something while they're not involved.

I'd say this is a generational thing, but I'm bullrushing 40.

Im 48. Been in the game since AD&D.

I've played at tables where everyone is faffing about, looking at their phones and taking ages with their turn. I've also been at tables where phones are away, everyone is engaged with the table and turns are snappy and the action is fast paced.

I'll take the latter every day of the week.

Personal preference, I guess.
 

Well, first, my group meets online, so invariably someone's mic cuts out. Second, I have parents who often have to deal with their kids ... "Sorry, what's going on? My kid just made a mess" is a common occurrence. Third, even when everyone's tech is working and everyone's attention is undivided, something requires clarification or expansion. No, that Archer monster is dead, but Monster B and C are currently in melee with the fighter and Monster C has the Rogue in its grasp. Oh, and finally ... I rarely run a single monster vs PC battle.

What helped speed up my battles was going to a group initiative, all the PCs act first and in any order they wish, then the Monsters all act. And even then, I think the shortest battle has been 20+ minutes.

Yeah I can get with online play slowing things up.

Consider giving them a timer? When their PC screen indicates its their turn, they have (30 seconds?) to start to type in what they're doing or they take the Dodge action and their turn ends, and you move onto the next person.
 


DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
Sorry, but "able to play your own character" is a minimum ask at my table. My dm time has vastly better uses than working on a specific pc.
That's cool. If you don't have any issues with the time it takes your players to take their turns and whatnot, then of course you don't need to do anything. My posts were not in reference to your situation.

It's only if (general) you DO have issues with one or more of your players who are just unable to keep up because things are too confusing for them that making things easier for them is a much better solution than 1) just all of you suffering through it, watching that player flounder session after session after session, and 2) wait/wish/hope/demand that WotC makes the game less complex for the 2024E version just so that your players can have an easier time of it and (general) you don't have to get off your rear end to do anything.

Because that's a ridiculous expectation to have and one that WotC will never use as a reason for them to make any changes to the game. Change the game for everyone just because there are a few DMs too lazy to help out their own players? Heh... bad reason. And besides... even if they ultimately did, (general) you'd still have to suffer for the next year and a half with your players waiting for the book to arrive, floundering and wasting all of your time in the interim.

So if it really means that much to (general) you... take the hour and write up an easier-to-read character sheet or spell block sheet. The time you save for the rest of the campaign will be a godsend. Plus your player might actually start to understand what all the bits and bobs mean if they can read it easier.
 

Belen

Adventurer
Change the game for everyone just because there are a few DMs too lazy to help out their own players?
When I run a game, I put hours of my time into it every week and often working on building out the campaign world and developing encounters, trying to incorporate the player backgrounds into the story, trying to build meaningful treasure lists....

Players show up. It is often the case that they never even bothered to level up from the previous session. They try to learn new abilities or spells in the middle of the game.

So the GM is lazy because they did not spend an extra few hours, per player, to make it easier on the player by creating materials to help them.

My experience is that the GM does most of the work already. The GM buys most of the materials. The GM often provides the hosting environment.

It should not be on the GM to make it easier for the player to manage and learn their single character when the GM is managing everything else.

WOTC should absolutely make sure that they support the GM and make certain that the game is simple enough for the players. It is not my job. I already buy their products. I even buy players their own PHB if they do not have one. D&D profits are due to having GMs that support the game and attract the players. Their own data shows that GMs buy most of the products.

Yeah, the GM is the lazy one.
 



DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
When I run a game, I put hours of my time into it every week and often working on building out the campaign world and developing encounters, trying to incorporate the player backgrounds into the story, trying to build meaningful treasure lists....

Players show up. It is often the case that they never even bothered to level up from the previous session. They try to learn new abilities or spells in the middle of the game.

So the GM is lazy because they did not spend an extra few hours, per player, to make it easier on the player by creating materials to help them.

My experience is that the GM does most of the work already. The GM buys most of the materials. The GM often provides the hosting environment.

It should not be on the GM to make it easier for the player to manage and learn their single character when the GM is managing everything else.

WOTC should absolutely make sure that they support the GM and make certain that the game is simple enough for the players. It is not my job. I already buy their products. I even buy players their own PHB if they do not have one. D&D profits are due to having GMs that support the game and attract the players. Their own data shows that GMs buy most of the products.

Yeah, the GM is the lazy one.
If you as the DM are sitting there stewing in annoyance and frustration while waiting for your player to take their turn because D&D is a complicated game, and you do absolutely nothing to help your friend out... and your excuse is "Oh, I already do all this work-- work I VOLUNTEERED to do when I said I'd DM"... then yeah, I think you are being lazy and unhelpful.

If people are going to keep claiming the WotC designers are lazy for not designing the game to their own personal specifications... then I will call (general) you lazy for not taking one hour out of your day to help a player of yours that wants to play but just can't go as fast as (general) you wish they would.

Now, if (general) you are fine with the speed at which your players play... then my comments do not refer to you. Everything is fine.
 

Cruentus

Adventurer
Again, how?

Presume a Very Hard encounter, for your group of 5 players (7th level PC's) that have played their PCs from 1st to 7th and are familiar with their characters abilities.

You: As you walk out of the forest, the (CR10 monster) attacks. It's 60' away, 40' up and swooping down from the air. Roll initiative.
(Dice rolled, order sorted out).
You: OK (looks at order) Bob (Wizard), it's your turn.
Bob: I cast fireball at the monster (save made, damage rolled, result noted by you).
You: Ok next is Steve (Rogue).
Steve: I take the Aim action (for advantage) as a bonus action, and then I shoot the (CR 10 monster) with my shortbow. Rolls d20 with advantage, hits. Rolls damage, including sneak attack. Damage noted.
You: OK, it;s the monsters turn. It uses its breath weapon, breathing fire on the entire party (rolls dice, saves are made, damage recorded by the players).

Etc.

The above likely goes on for 3 rounds or so, and then it's done. Really struggling to see how it could drag on past 15 minutes in any sort of regularity unless your players need rules explained to them, are not paying attention, or are spending like 5 minutes deciding what to do, or adding up numbers.

Genuine question, how does that take longer than 15 minutes?
Like this:
You: As you walk out of the forest, the (CR10 monster) attacks. It's 60' away, 40' up and swooping down from the air. Roll initiative.
(Dice rolled, order sorted out).

Player: I roll a 7. Oh wait, let me check my Dex bonus. Its...um... +2, to I have a 9. Hold on, I have a feat or skill or racial something that gives me a bonus. Looks. Oh, right, no I don't. I must be thinking about another character.
Player2: I roll a 5, plus 2, that's a 7.
Player 3: Huh? Are we rolling Initiative? What's going on? DM repeats the encounter. Oh, okay. Initiative, that's the d10, hold on. Ok, 8. Do I need to add anything to that? etc, etc. And so it goes for however many players.

Now, as DM, I can put those all in order, PLUS, put in order the monster, and heaven forbid someone THEN wants to add a skill/feat/spell/some other ability to add to someone's Initiative roll. I'm sure its out there.

You: OK (looks at order) Bob (Wizard), it's your turn.
Bob: Looks at his spell list. "How far away did you say it was." "Can you put that on the mapboard/battlemap/whatever". Proceeds to count the squares to double check the distance. Looks again at his spell list. Looks at his feats/class abilities/species abilities, and spell like abilities. Flips through the book or his notes looking for a) something in range, b) something that will do the most damage, c) something that will work best against the known or guessed worst ability save of the monster. Then proceeds to ask whether doing X amount of damage will ground the flyer. Then relooks at his notes before selecting his spell. Then the table discusses what his best course of action is. Then asks AGAIN, about whether he can cast two spells with a bonus action in the same round. THEN, heaven forbid there is more than 1 target, cause then you're looking at 5 minutes MINIMUM of faffing about making sure we got every possible enemy under the AoE for maximum possible damage.

Then we get to roll the spell, save, damage. Then, of course, there is some ability, rider, hex, something that someone forgot about, or wanted to do with a reaction, or whatever. So then we readjust whatever needs to be readjusted..

You: Ok next is Steve (Rogue).
Steve: "How far away is it?" "Can I use my sneak attack if I move under it?" "Can I wait until it passed over, when it swoops, to use my sneak attack then.?" "Well, then I'll move up, jump up with athletics, and make my sneak attack." Or some variation on the theme, which he can't actually do in this moment, but will discuss, look at sheets for some feat/ability/class ability/spell like ability/species ability that will let him do what he wants. Or use "Misty Step" to get onto the flying creatures back, and sneak attack there, while cross referencing his X levels in Paladin so that he can smite the beast too. And then the interruptions as people discuss the relative damage possible, chance of success, etc. Before Steve then possibly changes his mind as everyone is counting out the spaces on the battlemap. Then he uses his reaction and/or bonus action to do something else... etc., etc.

And so on, and so on, and so on. Every round.

Everyone in my last game was multiclassed, which added to the cognitive load. Every single player (and these are players who have been playing some version of DnD for about 40 years) are piloting their "character sheets" like a jumbo jet or battlemech, pulling levers and pushing buttons to make things happen. And looking for those buttons and levers, or combos of same, for every. single. action. PLUS, not just their action, but their move, action, but wait, further movement as we adjust, cause we can move/action/move, etc., and then their reaction, and bonus action. Oh, and the occassional Action Surge. For every single character to get the maximum bang out of every time its their turn. That is why combat takes so long in our games.

That is also why I went back to Basic/OSE for DND, and the players love it. Simple character sheet. One action on your turn. Things move at a crisp pace.
 

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