D&D (2024) One D&D Overly Complex

[deganawida]

Like this:
You: As you walk out of the forest, the (CR10 monster) attacks. It's 60' away, 40' up and swooping down from the air. Roll initiative.
(Dice rolled, order sorted out).
Player: I roll a 7. Oh wait, let me check my Dex bonus. Its...um... +2, to I have a 9. Hold on, I have a feat or skill or racial something that gives me a bonus. Looks. Oh, right, no I don't. I must be thinking about another character.
Player2: I roll a 5, plus 2, that's a 7.
Player 3: Huh? Are we rolling Initiative? What's going on? DM repeats the encounter. Oh, okay. Initiative, that's the d10, hold on. Ok, 8. Do I need to add anything to that? etc, etc. And so it goes for however many players.

Now, as DM, I can put those all in order, PLUS, put in order the monster, and heaven forbid someone THEN wants to add a skill/feat/spell/some other ability to add to someone's Initiative roll. I'm sure its out there.

You: OK (looks at order) Bob (Wizard), it's your turn.
Bob: Looks at his spell list. "How far away did you say it was." "Can you put that on the mapboard/battlemap/whatever". Proceeds to count the squares to double check the distance. Looks again at his spell list. Looks at his feats/class abilities/species abilities, and spell like abilities. Flips through the book or his notes looking for a) something in range, b) something that will do the most damage, c) something that will work best against the known or guessed worst ability save of the monster. Then proceeds to ask whether doing X amount of damage will ground the flyer. Then relooks at his notes before selecting his spell. Then the table discusses what his best course of action is. Then asks AGAIN, about whether he can cast two spells with a bonus action in the same round. THEN, heaven forbid there is more than 1 target, cause then you're looking at 5 minutes MINIMUM of faffing about making sure we got every possible enemy under the AoE for maximum possible damage.

Then we get to roll the spell, save, damage. Then, of course, there is some ability, rider, hex, something that someone forgot about, or wanted to do with a reaction, or whatever. So then we readjust whatever needs to be readjusted..

You: Ok next is Steve (Rogue).
Steve: "How far away is it?" "Can I use my sneak attack if I move under it?" "Can I wait until it passed over, when it swoops, to use my sneak attack then.?" "Well, then I'll move up, jump up with athletics, and make my sneak attack." Or some variation on the theme, which he can't actually do in this moment, but will discuss, look at sheets for some feat/ability/class ability/spell like ability/species ability that will let him do what he wants. Or use "Misty Step" to get onto the flying creatures back, and sneak attack there, while cross referencing his X levels in Paladin so that he can smite the beast too. And then the interruptions as people discuss the relative damage possible, chance of success, etc. Before Steve then possibly changes his mind as everyone is counting out the spaces on the battlemap. Then he uses his reaction and/or bonus action to do something else... etc., etc.

And so on, and so on, and so on. Every round.

Everyone in my last game was multiclassed, which added to the cognitive load. Every single player (and these are players who have been playing some version of DnD for about 40 years) are piloting their "character sheets" like a jumbo jet or battlemech, pulling levers and pushing buttons to make things happen. And looking for those buttons and levers, or combos of same, for every. single. action. PLUS, not just their action, but their move, action, but wait, further movement as we adjust, cause we can move/action/move, etc., and then their reaction, and bonus action. Oh, and the occassional Action Surge. For every single character to get the maximum bang out of every time its their turn. That is why combat takes so long in our games.

That is also why I went back to Basic/OSE for DND, and the players love it. Simple character sheet. One action on your turn. Things move at a crisp pace.

Just want to say that this is also what drove me back to older games, as both player and DM.

 

[niklinna]

I'm trying to hang out with my friends and not harass them for wanting to do something while they're not involved.

Why are they not involved? There's a combat going on. If they need to ask what just happened since the last time they took their turn, instead of paying attention to what was happening, it's a time-suck. If they just look up from their phone and say "I swing my sword" or "I cast magic missile", then I suppose it's less of an issue. Unless a fight requires actual tactics or team coordination, of course.

I say this as a player. I get right sick of being the one guy who is ready to declare & resolve their actions when their turn comes up (and knows what any special gear/abilities do), and I do not remain in groups where that is the case. (Win/win!)

 

[niklinna]

If you as a DM want your game to go faster and you know you have players for whom this type of information distribution would make it easier for them to decide what to do... then yeah, take an hour during your week and type this up for them. You'll save yourself and them so much more time during the game itself.

Speaking as a player: I regard that as the player's job. The GM already has more than enough to do. If you can't hack playing a spellcaster without having your hand held, then don't play a spellcaster.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Speaking as a player: I regard that as the player's job. The GM already has more than enough to do. If you can't hack playing a spellcaster without having your hand held, then don't play a spellcaster.

If you have that wherewithall to realize that and thus can pivot... more power to you. But a lot of players... especially newer ones... might not even know just how fast or how slow they are playing, because they have no frame of reference. For all they know, maybe they think everything is fine and doesn't even know the DM and a few others at the table are pulling their hair out?

But if that's the case... why would any DM just sit there and let this happen? Sit there and be annoyed at how the game is progressing and working and not doing anything to try and fix it? All because they think it's "the player's job"? Who does that to themselves? Why would any DM cut off their nose to spite their face like that? To me that is ridiculous. If the situation is fixable... then you try and fix it. Especially if the fix takes like 45 minutes.

 

[jerryrice4949]

I have had problems with players in current 5e who cannot make a decision and barely learn how their class works. Adding more complexity will be a nightmare.

This is all being blown out of proportion. Weapon Masteries are not complicated from a player perspective. I think most new players will easily manage it. It may make slightly more work for the DM in the short term.

 

[Flamestrike]

Like this:
You: As you walk out of the forest, the (CR10 monster) attacks. It's 60' away, 40' up and swooping down from the air. Roll initiative.
(Dice rolled, order sorted out).
Player: I roll a 7. Oh wait, let me check my Dex bonus. Its...um... +2, to I have a 9. Hold on, I have a feat or skill or racial something that gives me a bonus. Looks. Oh, right, no I don't. I must be thinking about another character.

Me to that player. Please record it on your character sheet. If you take too long to tell me what your initiative score is next time, I'll set it to 1.

Player2: I roll a 5, plus 2, that's a 7.
Player 3: Huh? Are we rolling Initiative? What's going on? DM repeats the encounter.

Me to player 3. Please pay attention to the table Mate. Im not going to repeat myself. Your initiative count is being set to 1, because obviously you don't know what's happening. Speak to (another player) about what's happening in the mean time. Next time it happens I'll set it to 1 and your PC will also be surprised.

Oh, okay. Initiative, that's the d10, hold on. Ok, 8. Do I need to add anything to that? etc, etc. And so it goes for however many players.

No it wont go on like that. Initiative is something rolled several times per session. It's a single number usually between 1 and 5.

Record it on your character sheet in the section its supposed to go in. Add it to a roll. If you cant get that right, or you take too long, you go on 1.

Now, as DM, I can put those all in order, PLUS, put in order the monster, and heaven forbid someone THEN wants to add a skill/feat/spell/some other ability to add to someone's Initiative roll. I'm sure its out there.

I write them down on a bit of paper, then tick off high to low as I go, placing a tick next to each number. Once everyone has a tick, I restart.

You: OK (looks at order) Bob (Wizard), it's your turn.
Bob: Looks at his spell list. "How far away did you say it was." "Can you put that on the mapboard/battlemap/whatever". Proceeds to count the squares to double check the distance. Looks again at his spell list. Looks at his feats/class abilities/species abilities, and spell like abilities. Flips through the book or his notes

And around about this time, I've finished my slow count down from 6 and Bobs Wizard takes the Dodge action, and his turn ends.

He'll learn next time.

You: Ok next is Steve (Rogue).
Steve: "How far away is it?" "Can I use my sneak attack if I move under it?" "Can I wait until it passed over, when it swoops, to use my sneak attack then.?" "Well, then I'll move up, jump up with athletics, and make my sneak attack." Or some variation on the theme, which he can't actually do in this moment, but will discuss, look at sheets for some feat/ability/class ability/spell like ability/species ability that will let him do what he wants.

And around about this time, I've finished my slow count down from 6 and Steves Rogue takes the Dodge action, and his turn ends.

If Steve wanted to race to the creature, jump and stab it, he simply tells me he does that.

He'll learn next time.

And so on, and so on, and so on. Every round.

Oh not at all.

Once the above happens just the once, I assure you they start paying attention at the table, and spending time away from the table to know their PCs abilities.

This is all discussed in session zero by the way. I use a turn timer on PC turns, and have an expectation that Players know thier PCs abilities, the rules of the game and dont waste time.

Im happy over the first 3 levels or so to help out new players of course (they get a much more relaxed turn counter, and Im happy to pause it to explain how a class feature or rule works). After explaining a feature once or twice though, the expectation is on the player to manage their own character.

Time wasting only happens because the DM allows it to happen. Explain to them at session zero that you have an expectation that they wont drag their feet during combat, are expected to know their abilities and modifiers, and that they'll be on a turn counter during combat.

If they dont want to play that game, fine. That's what session zero is for, and I wind up with players that are not staring at their phones or refusing to understand the rules of the class their playing.

Everyone in my last game was multiclassed, which added to the cognitive load.

Not my problem as DM. That's a player problem.

If you want to multi-class know your abilities. I'm not waiting around for you on your turn.

 

[Shardstone]

That's good. But with newer players it's pretty easy to just focus on your piece of the pie. "Oh, I can handle this little bit of added complexity, sure!" And then multiply that by multiple features across multiple PCs whose players are thinking the same thing. And before you know it you're approaching 4e combat grind territory.

But maybe that's what the new/current gen of D&D players wants. PF2e goes deep. LevelUp5e goes deep. Maybe that's just what a lot of gamers want right now.

This hypothetical reads as nonsense, sorry.

 

[FitzTheRuke]

1D&D seems to simplify some things and complicate others, with a net result of pretty much nothing. That's why you'll get complaints of "too complicated" or "too kids gloves" depending on how the person feels about 5e in the first place.

I honestly feel that it's too complicated in some areas and doesn't have enough depth in others, but winds up being about what I'd expect from D&D. It could be significantly better, but it's a pretty decent take on D&D, IMO (for whatever that's worth).

 

[Vaalingrade]

Why are they not involved? There's a combat going on. If they need to ask what just happened since the last time they took their turn, instead of paying attention to what was happening, it's a time-suck.

When did I say any of that? People multi-task all the time. Palmtop computers have been a thing in out lives for over a decade now, I just don't go off on people for it.

 

[Cruentus]

@Flamestrike I won’t disagree with your commentary, I was only counterpointing the question of how a combat in 5e can take more than 15 minutes. We had one player in our 5e game walk his dog, literally, before his turn came back around.

Sure, there are things that can be done, but I’d rather not have to wrestle the system.