D&D (2024) One D&D Overly Complex

[Flamestrike]

I have a hard time imagining that any sort of tactical play could be possible with only six seconds and some guy literally counting it down while you're trying to think.

"Oh, but you were supposed to be paying attention."

Yeah, for the whole 18 seconds the rest of the party was allotted; a situation that changed on the last turn six seconds ago.

Firstly, that's a feature and not a bug. I prefer to simulate the urgency and chaos of combat, and not run the game with the players having God like top down views of the table. Also, they'll get a few seconds before I start counting. Like I said, it's not absolute. Finally, they should already have a good idea of what they're going to do, because they've been watching the table for the last few minutes while everyone else has their turns, and using that time to plan, and not spending it on their phones.

Me: OK Steve. your fireball goes off and the Orcs Archers on the hill die horribly. That only leaves the 4 Orc warriors in melee with you Mike. Steves Wizard is 30' away from you, with the Rogue next to him with his bow out. Mike, it's your Fighters turn now, what do you do?

Six long seconds should be more than enough for Mike to answer that question. Usually along the lines of 'I attack the Orcs with my sharp pointy thing'.

 

[Vaalingrade]

Me: OK Steve. your fireball goes off and the Orcs Archers on the hill die horribly. That only leaves the 4 Orc warriors in melee with you Mike. Steves Wizard is 30' away from you, with the Rogue next to him with his bow out. Mike, it's your Fighters turn now, what do you do?

That took way more than six seconds to say. Why do you get to slow down combat so much?

 

[orangefruitbat]

That's a DM problem.

Like, I play the same game, and there is no way in hell I'd have a player go off and walk his dog mid round, or the other players take so long that this would be seen as in any way acceptable.

In my games, I give my players roughly 6 seconds (I'll start a slow count back from 6 after a few seconds) to tell me what they're doing after announcing it's their turn, or their PC takes the Dodge action and their turn ends.

You spend the time it's not your turn (while everyone else is having their turns) watching the board, and planning what to do when your initiative comes up.

I'll show some leniency to new players (it's one of the DMs jobs to teach new players the game after all) by pausing the countdown to explain a class feature or spell. After 3rd level you're on your own though.

Turns only take forever, if the DM permits it. We're not playing Rolemaster here (with percentile rolls, parry bonuses, charts indicating roles on other charts, in different books, upkeeping stun rounds, bleeding, penalties from wounds etc). On most turns you're casting a spell (and there is a save involved) or making an attack (an attack roll is involved) and then rolling damage. Each turn shouldn't take more than 30 seconds to resolve, a minute at absolute most (Action surging fighters rolling several attacks etc).

DM: OK (checks initiative order) Steve (Fighter 6), you're in combat with 5 orcs. It's now your turn.
Steve: I'll attack the Orcs, toggling GWM 'on'. Makes attack roll (hits, rolls damage, drops Orc 1). Makes attack roll (misses). I'll now attack with my bonus action from GWM. Makes attack roll (hits, rolls damage, drops another Orc). Now I'll action surge, taking the attack action. Makes attack roll (misses). Makes another attack roll (hits, rolls damage, drops another Orc).
DM: Nice work, you kill three Orcs! (checks initiative order). OK... Bob, you're up next.
Bob: (Looks up from phone) huh? What's going on...
DM: (Frowning at Bob but otherwise silent) Six... five... four...
Bob: (looking down at table, sees 2 Orcs in melee with Steve) hurriedly - I'll cast Scorching Ray, using a 2nd level slot. Makes 3 attack rolls, rolls damage for each hit.

Etc.

If I ran a game this way, most of my table would quit. One player would be pissed off that I was trying to push them around. One player would be struggling with decision paralysis. Another player would be trying to optimize the perfect move for that precise board state at that precise moment in time. And one would know what he wanted to do, but would be struggling verbally to describe it.

There are no phones at the table and we all know the rules very well (we've all being playing since at least B/X). The average 5E combat encounter at my table takes about an hour.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

If I ran a game this way, most of my table would quit. One player would be pissed off that I was trying to push them around. One player would be struggling with decision paralysis. Another player would be trying to optimize the perfect move for that precise board state at that precise moment in time. And one would know what he wanted to do, but would be struggling verbally to describe it.

There are no phones at the table and we all know the rules very well (we've all being playing since at least B/X). The average 5E combat encounter at my table takes about an hour.

@orangefruitbat has a real good point about people processing information differently.

As a neurodivergent individual, I'll provide some more possible context. There are a lot of people who think differently or process new information differently, or have attention issues. Some are neurodivergent and it's not a choice or just a "bad habit". It sounds like some DMs would come off as bullies if they were harsh or unflinching in their control.

If a DM has efficiency/control issues that don't align with someone else's issues, that can cause conflict. If the DM can demand that players go against their nature and play the way the DM prefers, why can't players demand the DM run a game that suits their own way of processing information? The DM is just one of the players at the game.

What I'm saying to all players, DMs included is... be patient... be kind... and if you are unable to because of your own needs for efficiency/rigidity, please understand that others aren't necessarily able to comply with your expectations without stress on their own side of things. Either work it out together, or not. But remember, it's a group game. Do it to have fun with others, not just yourself.

 

[codo]

I have a hard time imagining that any sort of tactical play could be possible with only six seconds and some guy literally counting it down while you're trying to think.

"Oh, but you were supposed to be paying attention."

Yeah, for the whole 18 seconds the rest of the party was allotted; a situation that changed on the last turn six seconds ago.

If I had a DM that was counting down every ones turn like that I think I would probably quit on the spot. It sounds incredibly stressful and rude. To me D&D is a game I play with my friends to have a good time. It isn't a job or a chore that I try to maximize the efficiency of, and try to finish in the least time possible.

I am sure your parties are more efficient, and they can complete adventures in a shorter amount of time than mine, but I don't care. For me, I am more interested in maximizing the fun we have, rather than finishing as fast as possible. Quality over Quantity.

 

[Neonchameleon]

If I had a DM that was counting down every ones turn like that I think I would probably quit on the spot. It sounds incredibly stressful and rude. To me D&D is a game I play with my friends to have a good time. It isn't a job or a chore that I try to maximize the efficiency of, and try to finish in the least time possible.

I am sure your parties are more efficient, and they can complete adventures in a shorter amount of time than mine, but I don't care. For me, I am more interested in maximizing the fun we have, rather than finishing as fast as possible. Quality over Quantity.

The problem is that when I play at a big table and everyone is farting around in combat rather than is organised and knows what they are going to do most people are getting bored not having a good time. If they are organised rather than being rude enough to waste everyone's time at the table then everyone has a better time. Waiting around while having a structured activity (as opposed to between combats) isn't maximising fun, it's waiting for fun to happen.

A six second countdown is a draconian way of making sure everyone has a better time; it beats the hell out of a game where you can walk the dog between turns. Although I'd prefer somewhere in the middle.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Firstly, that's a feature and not a bug. I prefer to simulate the urgency and chaos of combat, and not run the game with the players having God like top down views of the table. Also, they'll get a few seconds before I start counting. Like I said, it's not absolute. Finally, they should already have a good idea of what they're going to do, because they've been watching the table for the last few minutes while everyone else has their turns, and using that time to plan, and not spending it on their phones.

Me: OK Steve. your fireball goes off and the Orcs Archers on the hill die horribly. That only leaves the 4 Orc warriors in melee with you Mike. Steves Wizard is 30' away from you, with the Rogue next to him with his bow out. Mike, it's your Fighters turn now, what do you do?

Six long seconds should be more than enough for Mike to answer that question. Usually along the lines of 'I attack the Orcs with my sharp pointy thing'.

It sounds like a feature and a bug.

Player characters get less benefit from a godlike view of the battlefield....but....they likewise don't get the benefit of years of in-setting experience and in-person perspective that would facilitate good judgement on the battlefield.

DM: 6...5..4....
Player A: selects target to attack or cast spell on...
DM: OK..that target is behind a low wall so they get half cover for AC purposes
Player A: oh..wait a second..

DM: 3..2..
Player A: I'll target that thing instead..
DM: OK. That target is in dim light so you have disadvantage.
Player A: oh..wait..

DM: 1..0..your character takes the dodge action. Now it's the enemies' turn, here's how they move with perfect knowledge of their surroundings unconstrained by 6-second input timers.

.....meanwhile...all along 2 targets were in well-lit locations behind obstacles that weren't quite significant enough to warrant a cover bonus.

The master archer you're playing could have intuited this in the moment. The gaming nerd looking at a computer screen, set of minis or just trying to imagine it, is much less likely to have that intuition.

Now..perhaps you aren't the kind of DM who would play gotcha games like this with your players, or perhaps, somehow, your maps and descriptions are so utterly unambiguous that these questions never arise, but they've been fairly common in my experience.

All this to say, your experience is your own, I'm glad it works for you, but the belief that your experience could be universal but for a lack of will seems odd to me.

 

[codo]

The problem is that when I play at a big table and everyone is farting around in combat rather than is organised and knows what they are going to do most people are getting bored not having a good time. If they are organised rather than being rude enough to waste everyone's time at the table then everyone has a better time. Waiting around while having a structured activity (as opposed to between combats) isn't maximising fun, it's waiting for fun to happen.

A six second countdown is a draconian way of making sure everyone has a better time; it beats the hell out of a game where you can walk the dog between turns. Although I'd prefer somewhere in the middle.

Personally, I just don't think 5e works very well with large parties. I think 4 or 5 players works best, 6 max. Any more and it just bogs down. I can see how, with a large group, the 6 second rule would speed up play, but even with faster turns combat with to many players in the party starts to break down. Each additional player to the party adds more potential synergies between players and the more difficult it is to challenge them, and the more additional monsters needed.

If I had to play with a large group, rather then forcing players to play at a breakneck pace, I think I would use a different version of D&D that has simpler characters with fewer character options than 5e characters have. I am not real familiar with all the different OSR games, but I would look into them to start.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

The problem is that when I play at a big table and everyone is farting around in combat rather than is organised and knows what they are going to do most people are getting bored not having a good time. If they are organised rather than being rude enough to waste everyone's time at the table then everyone has a better time. Waiting around while having a structured activity (as opposed to between combats) isn't maximising fun, it's waiting for fun to happen.

A six second countdown is a draconian way of making sure everyone has a better time; it beats the hell out of a game where you can walk the dog between turns. Although I'd prefer somewhere in the middle.

I'm being a little pedantic here, but it's about what you wrote.

You said "when you play at a big table"... and "Everyone is farting around" it sounds like "everyone" is everyone else is farting around and having fun.

So when you say "most people are getting bored", that sounds like everyone=you. And then you say you are being draconian to force everyone else to have a good time.

I understand @codo 's comment about quitting a game like that on the spot. I prefer a focused and efficient game myself, but I could never be draconian with my friends who all just want to have a good time and laugh, and reconnect after a hard week.

 

[Flamestrike]

That took way more than six seconds to say. Why do you get to slow down combat so much?

They get six seconds to start talking. Not to finish speaking, roll all dice etc.

And before you try and run some kind of argument that the player might filibuster, if they're mucking about, 'dodge action and turn ends' is always an option.

Be snappy with your turns. Take too long, and you take the Dodge action and miss your turn.