D&D (2024) I like the new Warlock

[Neonchameleon]

I think agonising blast is fine, it's eldritch blast that needs to change. I think it should be a force version of fire bolt and that all of the eldritch blast invocations should apply to all cantrips, let warlock players customise their playstyle without feeling like they "doing it wrong" by not taking eldritch blast.

I don't think EB needs to change any more than the warlock needs to change anything other than the pact casting recharge method. But I know I'd be interested in a simple "Add your warlock level to cantrip damage" type effect. Although it might need to finesse the wording thanks to cantrips like Acid Splash and Green Flame Blade.

 

[Remathilis]

The assumptions were officially published. 6 encounters, 2 short rests per day. In my experience 4 encounters, and a short rest lunch break is more common. Either way I would expect a recharge for a warlock on average every other encounter. Which, yes, means that you get two spells per two encounters L 1-10. Or an average of one top tier spell per encounter. You don't expect to cast a levelled spell every encounter, but you do the majority (in reality I'd expect a 4 encounter adventuring day with a short rest to split 1/3 as often as 2/2, with 3/1 being rare). Getting two spells to cast every other encounter should on average be spellcasting more than once every other encounter.

As discussed though, that system breaks down in anything that isn't pretty much a linear dungeon where the PC has good reason to suspect an average amount of encounters and short rests in between. The problem is there are far too many adventure designs that break that structure. Pact magic ONLY works when you are using that optimal structure. One hard encounter and the warlock is out of gas. Go for a third encounter and warlock is out of gas. The warlock's rests set the pace of the adventure.

Yup. A warlock shouldn't be casting spells like Shield because they don't scale and don't fundamentally change the situation. The low level slot uses should be instead handled by Invocations.

Oh PLEASE give me an invocation that casts shield at will!

To be fair though, WotC grossly overvalues the at-will nature of invocations. They still think Jump at will is a 9th level effect. Apparently, nobody ever told them about Silent Image (or they feel illlusions are far too DM situational to rate).

We've already got an arcane half-caster version of the paladin and ranger. It's called the artificer and has synergy issues. "I sold my soul for mediocre casting" doesn't work thematically; the bard would be a better suggestion - but one of the key flaws of the bard and one reason why it works despite looking like a Caster+ is that its damage output is ... poor. Warlock was such a common multiclass because it patched this deliberate gap thanks to EB being a spell not a class feature.

I think WotC sees there is a flaw in the artificer and I fully expect that when the artificer gets the 1D&D treatment tht it will be fixed.

 

[mamba]

But think this is exactly the frustration people are having. If you focus the majority of your invocation choices on spells, you get 85% of the other casters (and not even really that if you account for those casters having access to metamagic and modify/memorize spell). So if you go all in and use the majority of your class unique power... you can't quite reach what other casters can do.

But you have your other stuff like Eldritch Blast, Agonizing Blast, Hex, the Pact, contacting the Patron, etc. You cannot be a full caster and have that (plus MA / invocations) on top

And people want you to be able to do that. They want to be able to stay roughly on par as a Mage in the Mage group. And, again, what abilities can you get that actually compete with high level spells? Even 3rd level spells can be adventure defining at level 5.

they are pretty much on par, but not in number of spell slots. Via MA you do have a 3rd level slot at level 5

If you rather have the features of the Wizard, play a Wizard. No one is stopping you. The Warlock is not behind in power, they just gain theirs differently (otherwise why have one in the first place...)

 

[Neonchameleon]

As discussed though, that system breaks down in anything that isn't pretty much a linear dungeon where the PC has good reason to suspect an average amount of encounters and short rests in between. The problem is there are far too many adventure designs that break that structure. Pact magic ONLY works when you are using that optimal structure. One hard encounter and the warlock is out of gas. Go for a third encounter and warlock is out of gas. The warlock's rests set the pace of the adventure.

Except not. There are multiple adventure structures that work. Hardcore dungeon diving isn't alas one of them. And anyone can be out of gas. But I don't think that anyone is proposing that the recharge mechanic for the warlock remains unchanged even if otherwise the casting structure does. (I've made multiple suggestions including proficiency bonus per day slots.

Oh PLEASE give me an invocation that casts shield at will!

Yeah, that would be very OP. On the other hand a reaction that can shield a single attack rather than being a round long buff might work. (Something more along the lines of the rogue's dodge-roll reaction at level 5).

To be fair though, WotC grossly overvalues the at-will nature of invocations. They still think Jump at will is a 9th level effect. Apparently, nobody ever told them about Silent Image (or they feel illlusions are far too DM situational to rate).

The thing is WotC seems to have no understanding of which invocations used at will are gamechangers (Disguise Self and Silent Image come to mind as surprisingly does Detect Magic) and which are so situational and don't lead to many shenanigans (Jump is an obvious one).

I think WotC sees there is a flaw in the artificer and I fully expect that when the artificer gets the 1D&D treatment tht it will be fixed.

I did ... before I saw this playtest warlock that has the same basic problems as the artificer. I haven't been raising that comparison for no reason.

 

[Remathilis]

I did ... before I saw this playtest warlock that has the same basic problems as the artificer. I haven't been raising that comparison for no reason.

My guess is that WotC is viewing the half-casters as spellcaster secondary, and something else primary. That fits the paladin (a warrior/divine hybrid) and ranger (a warrior/expert/primal hybrid) and can also describe the artificer (an expert/arcane hybrid). But the warlock is a funny beast. It can be a warrior with blade pact, but I wouldn't call it a warrior type. It's certainly not an expert and it's magic is 100% arcane. It's almost like they are a hybrid arcane/arcane caster. EB and all the fixings match a ranger in damage using magic, spellcasting is utility magic like an artificer (with invocations basically on par with free magic items) and MA gives them nova potential akin to a paladin. And much like all three, you can make them play more like a melee Gish or a pet build with the right options.

My personal preference would be to make all four have a similar play loop: spam a good damage attack, use spells for utilities, and have a nova strike a limited amount of times per day. Right now, the artificer lacks a good nova and main attack, the ranger lacks a nova, and the paladin has no reason to use their spells for anything but nova. Maybe that's intentional, because the warlock has all three but doesn't excel at any.

Then again, with the sorcerer being set up as the blaster/nova class, maybe the warlock needs to be looked at for a role other than nova bombs...

 

[Parmandur]

My guess is that WotC is viewing the half-casters as spellcaster secondary, and something else primary. That fits the paladin (a warrior/divine hybrid) and ranger (a warrior/expert/primal hybrid) and can also describe the artificer (an expert/arcane hybrid). But the warlock is a funny beast. It can be a warrior with blade pact, but I wouldn't call it a warrior type. It's certainly not an expert and it's magic is 100% arcane. It's almost like they are a hybrid arcane/arcane caster. EB and all the fixings match a ranger in damage using magic, spellcasting is utility magic like an artificer (with invocations basically on par with free magic items) and MA gives them nova potential akin to a paladin. And much like all three, you can make them play more like a melee Gish or a pet build with the right options.

My personal preference would be to make all four have a similar play loop: spam a good damage attack, use spells for utilities, and have a nova strike a limited amount of times per day. Right now, the artificer lacks a good nova and main attack, the ranger lacks a nova, and the paladin has no reason to use their spells for anything but nova. Maybe that's intentional, because the warlock has all three but doesn't excel at any.

Then again, with the sorcerer being set up as the blaster/nova class, maybe the warlock needs to be looked at for a role other than nova bombs...

It's the Half-caster that can either lean into being a half-caster with invocations, or go full caster with invocations. So, yes, it is the flexible Gish/Mage hybrid.

 

[Chaosmancer]

But you have your other stuff like Eldritch Blast, Agonizing Blast, Hex, the Pact, contacting the Patron, etc. You cannot be a full caster and have that (plus MA / invocations) on top

Well... why not?

Yes, Eldritch Blast is the most powerful cantrip in the game. But that alone won't make it so you can't be a full caster.

Agonizing Blast? Sure, it is uniquely good with Eldritch Blast, but agonizing blast isn't as versatile as Elemental Affinity or Potent Cantrip + Empowered Evocation. I mean, plenty of full casters add +mod to their damage.

Hex got nerfed, and there is no problem with Fullcasters getting Hunter's Mark which is basically an unnerfed hex as shown by the Druid and the Bard's ability to get it.

Sure, I know that the point is the combo, because old hex was also uniquely powerful with Eldritch Blast, but since it has been nerfed, it isn't really THAT potent to deny someone full spellcasting.

Contacting the Patron? That's just a ritual spell. Everyone can do that 1/day for free, they just have to pass the save. It isn't uniquely powerful, and in fact is likely less powerful than some other divinations that fullcasters DO have access to.

The pact? Sure, these are more powerful than some of the other options, but again, the Tome is just some extra cantrips some rituals, and then an ability many other class/subclasses get.

And many of the invocations are useful... but many of them aren't that powerful either. I mean, permanent Detect Magic isn't super powerful.



Meanwhile, the ability to switch spells with only a 10 minute ritual, the ability to modify them to remove key restrictions, and then spend mere gold to make those modifications permanent? On top of subclass abilities that are basically metamagic, at-will damage on a miss, and agonizing blast for all damage spells, and the ability to crit on command with spells? None of that is enough to deny fullcaster status?

The combo of Eldritch Blast plus agonizing blast, with the nerfed hex, is quite good still at low levels. But I don't think it is enough to make it so we couldn't have MA for free starting 5th level. Because, again, a 3rd level spell that cannot be used for any other slot, and once per day, isn't as powerful as full caster progression. And if it were free, I think it would be enough, because the biggest complaint I've seen is that getting the full-caster progression in terms of single spells per level requires too much of an investment from the invocations, which can often be fun tools in the tool kit.

they are pretty much on par, but not in number of spell slots. Via MA you do have a 3rd level slot at level 5

If you rather have the features of the Wizard, play a Wizard. No one is stopping you. The Warlock is not behind in power, they just gain theirs differently (otherwise why have one in the first place...)

But why does that have to cost me an invocation slot, when before it didn't?

I'm not going to advocate for warlocks to get full-caster progression. I agree, that would be too much. But I also think that getting their limited 3/4 progression at the cost of 7 invocations is absurd. It is too restrictive.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

It's the Half-caster that can either lean into being a half-caster with invocations, or go full caster with invocations. So, yes, it is the flexible Gish/Mage hybrid.

It can’t go full caster. It can get some high level spells, on a vastly more limited basis than a full caster.

 

[Parmandur]

It can’t go full caster. It can get some high level spells, on a vastly more limited basis than a full caster.

Budget wise, ot ends up being pretty close. The selling point is the flexibility, depending on what you want to do with the Invocations.

 

[mamba]

Well... why not?

because it is stupidly overpowered

But why does that have to cost me an invocation slot, when before it didn't?

because you have a lot more spell slots now to begin with

I'm not going to advocate for warlocks to get full-caster progression. I agree, that would be too much. But I also think that getting their limited 3/4 progression at the cost of 7 invocations is absurd. It is too restrictive.

well, it is more than 3/4, close to 9/10, and I disagree. It is your choice to use them like that, you can use them differently too.

The Warlock has flexibility in how much of a caster it wants to be. It won’t be ‘wizard, but better and more flexible’ that you seem to want.