D&D 5E (2024) I like the new Warlock

[Remathilis]

It's the Half-caster that can either lean into being a half-caster with invocations, or go full caster with invocations. So, yes, it is the flexible Gish/Mage hybrid.

Yeah, that's what I think I was trying to say.

 

[Chaosmancer]

because it is stupidly overpowered

Except I just showed it isn't stupidly overpowered? Did you read any of my points or just skip over to "I'm right and you are wrong"?

because you have a lot more spell slots now to begin with

Sort of, technically.

The expected power budget of the old warlock was 20 spell slots, all of fairly high level (5th or up) as well as 8 invocations. (yes, they didn't usually reach 2 short rests and a use of Eldritch Master, but that was the expectation when they were designed.)

This version has 15 spell slots, a free casting of a ritual, and a free spell from the pact list. Mostly low level (4th and below) And they have 9 invocations.

They are fairly comparable, but we have to ask the question "what is more valuable, high level spells or low level spells). In practice, this warlock will have more spells to throw around, but they are all of lower levels. So would it actually be too powerful to give them a single third level spell 1/day at 5th, and then follow the full caster progression, while keeping 7 to 8 invocations? I'm not convinced it would be.

Especially since, full caster progression is 22 spells, before class ablities, and the wizard's arcane recovery is +10 spell levels, and they get two free at-will spells and a free 1/day spell.

well, it is more than 3/4, close to 9/10, and I disagree. It is your choice to use them like that, you can use them differently too.

The Warlock has flexibility in how much of a caster it wants to be. It won’t be ‘wizard, but better and more flexible’ that you seem to want.

Yeah, it will always be less flexible than the wizard, have you seen what the wizard can do? Nothing is close to the wizard in this entire playtest.

But, seriously, have you looked at the Invocation list? Here is a quick run-down for you.

three of them modify a single cantrip
One of them modifies a spell
FIFTEEN of them are basically just +1 spell at-will, some are modified, others aren't.
One of them improves your familiar
one of them improves your combat ability
one is a feat, and non-repeatable
one improves spellcasting with a cool effect
One is "get high level spells"


So, let's say I wanted to really go ALL in on being a melee gish warlock. I have two options for invocations that aren't basically spells. Two. That isn't a lot of flexibility compared to if I wanted to lean into my magic which gives me, what? Twenty-two options?

Warlocks are casters. There is no getting around that fact. Everything they have is "more magic" but less flexible than the wizard or the sorcerer. Especially since the warlock with a familiar is... also just a caster. So why are we trying to pretend that this ins't the case?

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Budget wise, ot ends up being pretty close. The selling point is the flexibility, depending on what you want to do with the Invocations.

It loses more in flexibility than it gains.

 

[Parmandur]

It loses more in flexibility than it gains.

Not having had a chance to get it out on the road myself, I'm not so sure that it does or doesn't in practice.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Not having had a chance to get it out on the road myself, I'm not so sure that it does or doesn't in practice.

You don’t need road testing to know whether “one spell of this level, period” is more flexible than “one spell slot of this level, with potentially a few spells known”.

Having 1 level 3 spell that you can cast 1/day until level 9, and having to spend a very limited resource that is a lot of the meat of the class to even get that is less flexible than having multiple spells known of 3rd level at level 5.

 

[Parmandur]

You don’t need road testing to know whether “one spell of this level, period” is more flexible than “one spell slot of this level, with potentially a few spells known”.

Having 1 level 3 spell that you can cast 1/day until level 9, and having to spend a very limited resource that is a lot of the meat of the class to even get that is less flexible than having multiple spells known of 3rd level at level 5.

Spell slots are measures of power in the game math. Other abilities are balanced on a similar mathematical basis. Looking at the new Warlock, the math for a full Class worth of power seems to be in place. How it plays, I cannot say. I suspect quite well.

 

[Ashrym]

I still don't mind the half-caster progression. I preferred the pact magic progression but this is simpler, gives more control over spell expenditure to the player, and gave access to a lot of useful spells that were not available to warlocks. Casting spells in a higher slot that don't scale with slot makes the scaling irrelevant anyway, and there are useful lower level spells.

A class with the strongest attack cantrip in the game that mixed half-caster level with an alternative system of magic in invocations is still a caster. That's a workable system with at-will invocations and higher level spells available through them too. My only concern is I think a longer list of invocations and a couple more of them would be appropriate. Some invocations could be stronger.

It still feels to me like I'm playing a warlock.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

Spell slots are measures of power in the game math. Other abilities are balanced on a similar mathematical basis. Looking at the new Warlock, the math for a full Class worth of power seems to be in place. How it plays, I cannot say. I suspect quite well.

Wow.

Yeah, math only goes so far. The idea that a level 3 spell slot with multiple spells known is the same power as being able to cast a specific level 3 spell once a day is false. Objectively. Hell, even mathematically, the game values a greater number of choices within a feature. JC explicitly talked about it back when Xanathar’s was coming out, and he talked about the race feats, and said that they could give them a little more juice than they could with magic initiate because the basically unlimited choices of MI had power that had to be accounted for. Thus, a spell for wood elves could have a first level spell and a second level spell if they were specific spells that you couldn’t change.

 

[mamba]

Except I just showed it isn't stupidly overpowered? Did you read any of my points or just skip over to "I'm right and you are wrong"?

I started at the top and worked my way down, so at that time you had showed nothing

You also didn't show anything in the rest that made me change it after the fact either. You said you would not use a full caster progression, but did not provide one you would use instead.

The expected power budget of the old warlock was 20 spell slots, all of fairly high level (5th or up) as well as 8 invocations. (yes, they didn't usually reach 2 short rests and a use of Eldritch Master, but that was the expectation when they were designed.)

yeah, I disagree with that math. The Warlock had 4 slots of 5th level. That is not the same as 20 slots, not even after 2 short rests, which as you said they did not always get.

Now the Warlock has 15 slots (surprise, the same number as two rests gave you before, check your math) of varying levels and has a much better selection of spells available. Plus 9 invocations. Not to mention all the levels before 20 where the new Warlock runs rings around the 5e version, esp. the lower ones (i.e. the ones people actually play). So an overall improvement over the 5e Warlock

 

[Parmandur]

Wow.

Yeah, math only goes so far. The idea that a level 3 spell slot with multiple spells known is the same power as being able to cast a specific level 3 spell once a day is false. Objectively. Hell, even mathematically, the game values a greater number of choices within a feature. JC explicitly talked about it back when Xanathar’s was coming out, and he talked about the race feats, and said that they could give them a little more juice than they could with magic initiate because the basically unlimited choices of MI had power that had to be accounted for. Thus, a spell for wood elves could have a first level spell and a second level spell if they were specific spells that you couldn’t change.

My point is that the comparison is not 1-to-1. The Warlock has other abilities thst facotr into their overall budget that a Wizard or a Sorcerer do not have.