D&D (2024) I like the new Warlock

[mamba]

Pact Magic: At 3rd level your patron grants you a fraction of their immense power bestowing upon you a special spell slot that acts as if it is 2nd level. This spell slot can be used to upcast any spells known or to cast any qualifying spell on the patrons spell list. At 5th level your Pact Magic acts as a 3rd level slot, increasing to 4th at level 7 and finally 5th at level 9.

all that is really need is moving MA to 3rd level to allow for 2nd level spells by then

 

[Ashrym]

Here is a comparison based on my testing with a tome warlock. First a chart for the pact magic vs caster progression table:

Level​	0 SR​	1 SR​	2 SR​	3 SR​	UA Progression​	5e Arcanum​	UA Arcanum​
1​	1​	2​	3​	4​	2​	0​	0​
2​	2​	4​	6​	8​	2​	0​	0​
3​	2​	4​	6​	8​	3​	0​	0​
4​	2​	4​	6​	8​	3​	0​	0​
5​	2​	4​	6​	8​	6​	0​	0-2​
6​	2​	4​	6​	8​	6​	0​	0-3​
7​	2​	4​	6​	8​	7​	0​	0-4​
8​	2​	4​	6​	8​	7​	0​	0-4​
9​	2​	4​	6​	8​	9​	0​	0-5​
10​	2​	4​	6​	8​	9​	0​	0-5​
11​	3​	6​	9​	12​	10​	1​	0-6​
12​	3​	6​	9​	12​	10​	1​	0-6​
13​	3​	6​	9​	12​	11​	2​	0-7​
14​	3​	6​	9​	12​	11​	2​	0-7​
15​	3​	6​	9​	12​	12​	3​	0-8​
16​	3​	6​	9​	12​	12​	3​	0-8​
17​	4​	8​	12​	16​	14​	4​	0-9​
18​	4​	8​	12​	16​	14​	4​	0-9​
19​	4​	8​	12​	16​	15​	4​	0-9​
20​	4​	8​	12​	16​	15​	4​	0-9​

Note that at 5th level the option exists to take mystic arcanum and to swap out a previous invocation for another mystical arcanum of a different level, and at 6th level the other invocation preceding 5th level can also be swapped out for a mystic arcanum. I wouldn't do this because I prefer at-will invocations but the chart notes that it's possible to spend all invocations on mystic arcanum.

Other than low levels, the actual number of spell actions between the two isn't heavily in favor of the standard assumption. Only the spell levels are the significant concern. And it is a fair point that it's a significant concern.

I went vanilla with a human. The default gave me resourceful, skillful, and versatile.

I went cultist for the background. That gave me +2 INT, +1 CHA, arcana proficiency, religion proficiency, disguise kit proficiency, magic initiate.

I usually use point buy, but standard array is more typical of rolling method or array so went that route for playtesting. I know I could manage the ability scores better but I choose my perception of the character over eeking out advantages. ;-)

STR: 8
DEX: 13
CON: 12
INT: 14+2=16
WIS: 10
CHA: 15+1=16

So the first level is rather extremely different. Giving up the short rest recharge gave me 3 cantrips instead of 2 based on the class because Eldritch Blast and Hex are free for all warlocks as bonus spells now. I went tomelock (INT), which gave me book of shadows immediately so at 1st level...

warlock cantrips: eldritch blast, prestidigition, minor illusion
magic initiate (arcane) cantrips: mage hand, mending
book of shadows cantrips: guidance, resistance

warlock spells: hex, shield, sleep
magic initiate (arcane) spell: thunderwave
book of shadows spells: find familiar, detect magic

Gaining the pact ability at 1st level instead of 3rd level makes a big difference for the class. A background feat isn't part of the class but it also clearly makes a big difference to the overall character. I was not struggling with using magic at 1st level.

skill proficiencies: arcana, religion, persuasion (skillful), history (skilled), deception (skilled), insight (skilled)
armor training: light, medium

At 2nd level I picked up armor of agathys for a prepared spell, misty visions (invocation), and agonizing blast (invocation). The number of cantrips available and free casting of silent image at will continues to make a caster warlock doable.

At 3rd level I grabbed alarm because the ritual caster feature is no longer necessary. This also granted me burning hands and command.

At 4th level INT bumped to 18 with the ability score feat, and I added identify and message.

At 5th level I swapped out sleep for levitate and added darkness. I replaced agonizing blast invocation with devil's sight because the book of shadows upgrades damage enough at that point, and I added fireball via mystic arcanum. The patron features added suggestion and scorching ray.

6th level was the subclass feature and not part of the spells specifically but dark one's own luck is useful. At 7th level I added detect thoughts, and wall of fire via mystic arcanum.

8th level was the ability increase feat to change INT to 20 and felt like a bit of a dead level. At 9th level I added fear and stinking cloud as patron spells, clairvoyance and dispel magic via spells prepared, and animate objects as mystic arcanum. Replaced alarm with Leomund's tiny hut.

10th level was another subclass feature. Added the friends cantrip.

11th level adds contact other plane as a class feature. I added comprehend languages for the spells prepared. I replaced the fireball mystic arcanum with circle of death via mystic arcanum, and added whispers of the grave.

12th level I increased CON to 14. At 13th level the patron spells added wall of fire and blight. I replaced wall of fire from mystic arcanum with teleport. I added polymorph. I added gift of the protectors.

14th level adds hurl through hell. At 15th level I added dimension door. I added glibness through mystic arcanum.

At 16th level I took the durable feat. CON went up to 15 and the warlock could expend HD for healing using a bonus action.

17th level adds flame strike and insect plague as patron spells. I added animate objects and scrying. I replaced the animate objects from mystic arcanum with wish. I added master of myriad forms.

At 18th level hex becomes at will. I traded replaced teleport from mystic arcanum with forcecage. At 19th level I added misty step, and bumped DEX to 14 and CON to 16.

20th level added +2 INT and epic boon of the night spirit. We played around with epic and I later added epic boon of energy resistance.

Build at the end of playing was:

AC 19 (+3 breastplate)
163 hp

STR: 8 (saves -1)
DEX: 14 (saves +2)
CON: 16 (saves +3)
INT: 24 (saves +7)
WIS: 10 (saves +6)
CHA: 16 (saves +9)

athletics (-1); acrobatics (+2), sleight-of-hand (+2), (stealth +2); arcana (+13), history (+13), investigation (+7), nature (+7), religion (+13); animal handling (+0), insight (+6), medicine (+0), perception (+0), survival (+0); deception (+9), intimidation (+3), performance (+3), persuasion (+9)

cantrips: eldritch blast, prestidigitation, minor illusion, mage hand, mending, guidance, resistance, message, friends

1st-level -- hex, shield, thunderwave, find familiar, detect magic, armor of agathys, burning hands, command, Identify, comprehend languages
2nd-level -- suggestion, scorching ray, darkness, levitate, detect thoughts, misty step
3rd-level -- fear, stinking cloud, clairvoyance, dispel magic, leomund's tiny hut
4th-level -- wall of fire, blight, polymorph, dimension door, hurl through hell
5th-level -- contact other plane, flame strike, insect plague, animate objects, scrying

6th-level -- circle of death
7th-level -- forcecage
8th-level -- glibness
9th-level -- wish

Invocations: mystic arcanum (x4), misty visions, devil's sight, whispers of the grave, gift of the protectors, master of myriad forms

There is a free casting of thunderwave, hurl through hell, contact other plane, and one of the patron spells. The following spells can be cast at will: hex, silent image, alter self, speak with dead. The following spells can be cast as rituals: find familiar, detect magic, identify, comprehend languages, leomund's tiny hut, contact other plane.

Medium armor was added, dark one's own luck increased uses, and fiendish resilience is fairly flexible. Access to spells like shield helps now and I'll point out that absorb elements seem to have been removed from the arcane spell list. With epic boons, epic boon of the night spirit granted resistance to all damage types other than force, psychic, and radiant with some darkness. Epic boon of resistance added resistance to psychic and radiant.

Find familiar was a bit disappointing. Now that the familiar from the arcane list spell is based on spell level warlocks using the spell have a worse familiar. Wish, OTOH, can still replicate any spell of 8th level or lower, which becomes problematic when creating class only spells. I could use wish to cast the pact familiar cantrip.

A sorcerer can use wish to grab book of shadows and pact familiar. And all kinds of shenanigans during downtime by being immune to losing wish forever.

I did not feel weaker in low levels. I do think shared spell lists look like more trouble than they're worth.

 

[Chaosmancer]

11/13/15/17? That's four levels. I think that's possible.

I don't think the 3/4/5 invocation slot really are a big deal, since you'll prob sub those out once you attain spells at that level. But the high tier ones are what concern me.

5th level is a big one. 3rd level spells at 5th level are very big.

7th brings 4th level spells. Maybe you can ignore this.

9th brings 5th level spells. And these are often quite big.

So, I'm really looking at 5th, 9th, 11th, 13th, 15th and 17th which is six invocations, and you would want to have melee and chain options, which means twelve new invocations at a minimum. Probably more since you don't want to have people locked into a single pathway.

But I could pretty easily make three options for each of those levels, for 12 additional options, and with WotC's resources get them balanced etc. It's 100% doable. It is by no means an insurmountable task. WotC just needs the inspiration to do it.

Doable yes, but I wouldn't say easy.

 

[Chaosmancer]

After play testing the new version you really feel weaker in your lower levels. What I have been thinking about doing is adding the following ability

Pact Magic: At 3rd level your patron grants you a fraction of their immense power bestowing upon you a special spell slot that acts as if it is 2nd level. This spell slot can be used to upcast any spells known or to cast any qualifying spell on the patrons spell list. At 5th level your Pact Magic acts as a 3rd level slot, increasing to 4th at level 7 and finally 5th at level 9.
During a short rest you may regain this spell slot by compleating a ritual that takes an hour and requires you to spending a number of hit dice equal to the Pact Magic's effective level -1.

This grants the warlock 1 more spells per day with the ability to recharge this during a short rest but with a HD cost, it gives them the ability to still cast 2-5th level spells at the same time as a full caster but only let's them update spells they already know or cast one of the 2 specific spells for that level granted to you by your patron. This gives you a bit more power but keeps it very thematic and while it is only extra spell the ability to burn HD to recharge it hearkens back to what a warlock could do in the 2014 edition but reining it in.

That's an interesting idea. It doesn't do anything for 6th thru 9th, but it allows for some upcasting early. And I like tying it into the patron list.

I don't know if I like the HD cost though, but I tend to make HD matter in my games for recovery.

 

[Chaosmancer]

you have the MA for that by then

True, but that means you are practically requiring them to take the MA they get at 5th for that spell. And frankly, I struggle to see any of the invocations available at 5th level that could compete with getting a 3rd level spell, so it becomes a non-choice.

because most campaigns do not make it past level 10.

That is not to say WotC should not try and attempt to get the high levels right as well, but a lot fewer people will notice it.
And making higher levels less powerful in general would be a good thing in my book (not that we are there yet…)

But if there is no incentive to get to high levels, then why would you have a campaign that goes to high levels? I don't think we should just throw out game design post level 11 just because the data currently shows the majority of games don't make it there. That seems to be a recipe for eventually having a game that doesn't have high level play, because no one designs for it anymore.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Find familiar was a bit disappointing. Now that the familiar from the arcane list spell is based on spell level warlocks using the spell have a worse familiar.

I actually like this fact, because the Pact Familiar is based on Warlock level, and this means that the Pact warlock actually doesn't get the majority of its lunch stolen by the Tomelock, like it used to.

I am disappointed the tomelock lost so much power in terms of ritual casting, but differentiating the tome and the chain is a great thing in my book.

 

[Mirrorrorrim]

After play testing the new version you really feel weaker in your lower levels. What I have been thinking about doing is adding the following ability

Pact Magic: At 3rd level your patron grants you a fraction of their immense power bestowing upon you a special spell slot that acts as if it is 2nd level. This spell slot can be used to upcast any spells known or to cast any qualifying spell on the patrons spell list. At 5th level your Pact Magic acts as a 3rd level slot, increasing to 4th at level 7 and finally 5th at level 9.
During a short rest you may regain this spell slot by compleating a ritual that takes an hour and requires you to spending a number of hit dice equal to the Pact Magic's effective level -1.

This grants the warlock 1 more spells per day with the ability to recharge this during a short rest but with a HD cost, it gives them the ability to still cast 2-5th level spells at the same time as a full caster but only let's them update spells they already know or cast one of the 2 specific spells for that level granted to you by your patron. This gives you a bit more power but keeps it very thematic and while it is only extra spell the ability to burn HD to recharge it hearkens back to what a warlock could do in the 2014 edition but reining it in.

What if Pact Magic at Level 3 was tied to the Patron Spells you get from your Subclass?

3rd Level: Fiend Pact Magic
The magic of your otherworldly patron grants you the following benefits:

• Prepared Spells. You always have certain spells ready; when you reach a Warlock level specified in the Fiend Pact Spells table, you thereafter always have the listed spells prepared.
• Pact Spell Slots. You also have 2 special Pact Spell Slots that are of the highest level you can cast as per the Warlock Spells table. You can cast two of your prepared spells from the Fiend Pact Magic feature using those Pact Spell Slots, and you must finish a Long Rest before you regain those Pact Spell Slots. For example, when you are 5th level, you have two 2nd-level Pact Spell slots. You may cast one of your 1st or 2nd level Fiend Pact Spells using one of your Pact Spell Slots, and you cast it as a 2nd-level spell.
• Take Initiative. When you roll initiative, you may spend up to one Hit Die to regain one Pact Spell Slot. The rush of adrenaline lets you sacrifice a bit of life force to your Patron to get a little extra power.

FIEND PACT SPELLS
Warlock Level Spells
3rd Burning Hands, Command
5th Scorching Ray, Suggestion
9th Fear, Stinking Cloud
13th Blight, Wall of Fire
17th Flame Strike, Insect Plague

By putting it into the Subclass, it reinforces the Pact theme, and you can have other subclasses that do things other than Pact Spells.

 

[mamba]

True, but that means you are practically requiring them to take the MA they get at 5th for that spell. And frankly, I struggle to see any of the invocations available at 5th level that could compete with getting a 3rd level spell, so it becomes a non-choice.

agreed, it currently is the obvious choice

But if there is no incentive to get to high levels, then why would you have a campaign that goes to high levels? I don't think we should just throw out game design post level 11 just because the data currently shows the majority of games don't make it there. That seems to be a recipe for eventually having a game that doesn't have high level play, because no one designs for it anymore.

I am not saying throw them out, but that because of this the problem with D&D unraveling around level 12 or so is not as important.

They still should address it, and to me making things less OP would definitely be a step in the right direction. I do not see this as removing incentive, I see it as making it playable

Ultimately I do not think it matters much, games fall apart before then for many reasons, many of which are not related to the mechanics, let alone the high level mechanics.
I rather have WotC nail levels 1-10 and keep 11-20 roughly as wobbly as they are than keeping 1-10 as they are and getting 11-20 to a similar state as 1-10

 

[Chaosmancer]

I am not saying throw them out, but that because of this the problem with D&D unraveling around level 12 or so is not as important.

They still should address it, and to me making things less OP would definitely be a step in the right direction. I do not see this as removing incentive, I see it as making it playable

Ultimately I do not think it matters much, games fall apart before then for many reasons, many of which are not related to the mechanics, let alone the high level mechanics.
I rather have WotC nail levels 1-10 and keep 11-20 roughly as wobbly as they are than keeping 1-10 as they are and getting 11-20 to a similar state as 1-10

I don't think you are saying to throw them out. But if every time we see a design problem at levels 11 to 20 we say "meh, it isn't a big deal, no one plays those levels." then eventually the designers are going to go "Well... we haven't cared to balance this for the last [length of time] so... why not just cut that part of the game instead of having this half-designed space no one uses?"

And sure, games fall apart for many reasons, but I still find this idea that we can ignore high level problems because no one plays at high levels as poor reasoning. We shouldn't aim for 1-10 or aim for 11-20, we should aim for 1-20 to be solidly nailed. And yes, that is harder, but it is much easier to do now, than trying to fix it again later.

 

[mamba]

I don't think you are saying to throw them out. But if every time we see a design problem at levels 11 to 20 we say "meh, it isn't a big deal, no one plays those levels." then eventually the designers are going to go "Well... we haven't cared to balance this for the last [length of time] so... why not just cut that part of the game instead of having this half-designed space no one uses?"

they definitely should improve them, I said so, but the earlier levels are more important. Pretty sure they want to improve across the board