D&D (2024) I like the new Warlock

[doctorbadwolf]

I still don't mind the half-caster progression. I preferred the pact magic progression but this is simpler, gives more control over spell expenditure to the player, and gave access to a lot of useful spells that were not available to warlocks. Casting spells in a higher slot that don't scale with slot makes the scaling irrelevant anyway, and there are useful lower level spells.

A class with the strongest attack cantrip in the game that mixed half-caster level with an alternative system of magic in invocations is still a caster. That's a workable system with at-will invocations and higher level spells available through them too. My only concern is I think a longer list of invocations and a couple more of them would be appropriate. Some invocations could be stronger.

It still feels to me like I'm playing a warlock.

I get where you’re coming from with this.

I think I could dig it if they made the mystic arcanum separate from normal invocations, and made the MA spells into spell slots, and let you learn and prepare multiple spells.

Otherwise, I’m gonna keep pushing hard against it. Especially since there are other solutions.

Like, seriously we could have 2 max level slots, 2 max-1 slots, and 1 max-2 slots, per day, with recharge that doesn’t rely on short rests.

Tune the numbers up or down as needed, obviously, but it’s still a full caster spell level progression, and can still solve the spell slot hoarder” problem without any need to reduce invocations, because you’re still more restricted than a wizard.

Of course, part of the problem is having every class have to be strictly bound to one spell list that serves as basically a power source…which was one of the things that kinda sucked in 4e, instead of just having a class spell list.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

My point is that the comparison is not 1-to-1. The Warlock has other abilities thst facotr into their overall budget that a Wizard or a Sorcerer do not have.

Sure, and they don’t need to preclude being an actual full caster. (Or 2/3 caster depending on how you define that, as long as it gets new spell level access at the same levels as the wizard)

 

[Chaosmancer]

I started at the top and worked my way down, so at that time you had showed nothing

You also didn't show anything in the rest that made me change it after the fact either. You said you would not use a full caster progression, but did not provide one you would use instead.

Keep the half-caster, give them Mystic Arcanum for free for a single 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th spell.

That still isn't full caster, but it takes the weight of the Arcanum off of the invocations. I thought I had made that proposal clear, so apologies if I didn't.

yeah, I disagree with that math. The Warlock had 4 slots of 5th level. That is not the same as 20 slots, not even after 2 short rests, which as you said they did not always get.

I'm not sure how you can disagree with the math.

4 spell slots of 5th level
'+ Short Rest = 8 spell slots
'+ Short Rest = 12 spell slots
'+ Eldritch Master 1 minute ritual capstone = 16 spell slots
'+ Mystic Arcanum (6th, 7th, 8th, 9th) = 20 spell slots.

That is very basic algebra.

Now, again, I agree that in PRACTICAL terms, they didn't get this. But it was DESIGNED to get this. This was the designed power level. The game just didn't actually meet the expectations of the design. So we can't measure this against the practical power of the warlock, but the designed expectations of the warlocks

Now the Warlock has 15 slots (surprise, the same number as two rests gave you before, check your math) of varying levels and has a much better selection of spells available. Plus 9 invocations. Not to mention all the levels before 20 where the new Warlock runs rings around the 5e version, esp. the lower ones (i.e. the ones people actually play). So an overall improvement over the 5e Warlock

15 < 20. And 9 invocations is very misleading when the design is expecting anywhere from 4 to 5 of them to be Mystic Arcanum.

I also am not convinced that the new version "runs circles" around the old version. Sure, maybe the new version has more power at low levels, but lacking that 3rd level spell at 5th level is viciously harsh. And again, is it a good design to cut later level power to give a boost to early power? I'm not sure. Many of the classes that are discussed as needing fixed all do that same thing, sacrificing late level power in exchange for early level power. Why increase that problem?

 

[Shardstone]

Well... why not?

Yes, Eldritch Blast is the most powerful cantrip in the game. But that alone won't make it so you can't be a full caster.

Agonizing Blast? Sure, it is uniquely good with Eldritch Blast, but agonizing blast isn't as versatile as Elemental Affinity or Potent Cantrip + Empowered Evocation. I mean, plenty of full casters add +mod to their damage.

Hex got nerfed, and there is no problem with Fullcasters getting Hunter's Mark which is basically an unnerfed hex as shown by the Druid and the Bard's ability to get it.

Sure, I know that the point is the combo, because old hex was also uniquely powerful with Eldritch Blast, but since it has been nerfed, it isn't really THAT potent to deny someone full spellcasting.

Contacting the Patron? That's just a ritual spell. Everyone can do that 1/day for free, they just have to pass the save. It isn't uniquely powerful, and in fact is likely less powerful than some other divinations that fullcasters DO have access to.

The pact? Sure, these are more powerful than some of the other options, but again, the Tome is just some extra cantrips some rituals, and then an ability many other class/subclasses get.

And many of the invocations are useful... but many of them aren't that powerful either. I mean, permanent Detect Magic isn't super powerful.



Meanwhile, the ability to switch spells with only a 10 minute ritual, the ability to modify them to remove key restrictions, and then spend mere gold to make those modifications permanent? On top of subclass abilities that are basically metamagic, at-will damage on a miss, and agonizing blast for all damage spells, and the ability to crit on command with spells? None of that is enough to deny fullcaster status?

The combo of Eldritch Blast plus agonizing blast, with the nerfed hex, is quite good still at low levels. But I don't think it is enough to make it so we couldn't have MA for free starting 5th level. Because, again, a 3rd level spell that cannot be used for any other slot, and once per day, isn't as powerful as full caster progression. And if it were free, I think it would be enough, because the biggest complaint I've seen is that getting the full-caster progression in terms of single spells per level requires too much of an investment from the invocations, which can often be fun tools in the tool kit.



But why does that have to cost me an invocation slot, when before it didn't?

I'm not going to advocate for warlocks to get full-caster progression. I agree, that would be too much. But I also think that getting their limited 3/4 progression at the cost of 7 invocations is absurd. It is too restrictive.

Just want to point out that Pact of the Tome, at 5th level, adds your spellcasting modifier to your cantrip damage for everything!

 

[Shardstone]

Keep the half-caster, give them Mystic Arcanum for free for a single 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th and 9th spell.

That still isn't full caster, but it takes the weight of the Arcanum off of the invocations. I thought I had made that proposal clear, so apologies if I didn't.



I'm not sure how you can disagree with the math.

4 spell slots of 5th level

• Short Rest = 8 spell slots
• Short Rest = 12 spell slots
• Eldritch Master 1 minute ritual capstone = 16 spell slots
• Mystic Arcanum (6th, 7th, 8th, 9th) = 20 spell slots.

That is very basic algebra.

Now, again, I agree that in PRACTICAL terms, they didn't get this. But it was DESIGNED to get this. This was the designed power level. The game just didn't actually meet the expectations of the design. So we can't measure this against the practical power of the warlock, but the designed expectations of the warlocks



15 < 20. And 9 invocations is very misleading when the design is expecting anywhere from 4 to 5 of them to be Mystic Arcanum.

I also am not convinced that the new version "runs circles" around the old version. Sure, maybe the new version has more power at low levels, but lacking that 3rd level spell at 5th level is viciously harsh. And again, is it a good design to cut later level power to give a boost to early power? I'm not sure. Many of the classes that are discussed as needing fixed all do that same thing, sacrificing late level power in exchange for early level power. Why increase that problem?

I just don't like it man. I think a better solution is to make better invocations for higher levels to compete with spell slots. I like Mystic Arcanum being an Invocation. I like that, in theory, I can choose to have high magic or I can choose to have really cool passive magic effects. What I don't like is that there aren't enough high level passive magic effects in the invocation list.

I should have True Sight 24/7 as a higher level option. Or one use of legendary resistance per rest, granted by my patron. Or an invocation where I summon my patron to help me in battle or break a spell once per 7 days, like the old Divine Intervention. These kinds of ideas are thematic to the warlock and would make me really question whether a high level spell or one of these crazy unique magic effects better fits my character.

Imagine having a Pact of the Blade high level Invocation where your pactblade can "steal" properties from other magic items, or your pact of the chain familiar can be elevated into an actual dragon or angel for an hour, no concentration, all the benefits and more. Warlock could, in theory, fulfil the "weird caster," "arcane gish," and "pet class" niches all through better high level invocations IMO. It's right there. They just need to find the inspiration to do it.

But I will, even if they don't. This new Warlock, every day, becomes my favorite class design, period. I think it's really smart and really flexible and just a little bit more work and it'll be a masterpiece to me.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I just don't like it man. I think a better solution is to make better invocations for higher levels to compete with spell slots. I like Mystic Arcanum being an Invocation. I like that, in theory, I can choose to have high magic or I can choose to have really cool passive magic effects. What I don't like is that there aren't enough high level passive magic effects in the invocation list.

I could see that. But it would be very hard to offer options as good as those spell levels at those class levels.

I should have True Sight 24/7 as a higher level option.

This exists, it is a 15th level invocation that only extends 30ft, but it is permanent true sight.

Or one use of legendary resistance per rest, granted by my patron.

That would be neat

Or an invocation where I summon my patron to help me in battle or break a spell once per 7 days, like the old Divine Intervention.

Hmm.... Maybe not summon the Patron, but summoning powerful servitors is totally something the Chain Pact should be capable of. They really should be the summoning warlock.

But I will, even if they don't. This new Warlock, every day, becomes my favorite class design, period. I think it's really smart and really flexible and just a little bit more work and it'll be a masterpiece to me.

I can agree it needs work, but has potential. I could see the idea, I'm just not sure how feasible it is to create powerful effects equal to spells, for all those levels.

 

[Shardstone]

I could see that. But it would be very hard to offer options as good as those spell levels at those class levels.



This exists, it is a 15th level invocation that only extends 30ft, but it is permanent true sight.



That would be neat



Hmm.... Maybe not summon the Patron, but summoning powerful servitors is totally something the Chain Pact should be capable of. They really should be the summoning warlock.



I can agree it needs work, but has potential. I could see the idea, I'm just not sure how feasible it is to create powerful effects equal to spells, for all those levels.

11/13/15/17? That's four levels. I think that's possible.

I don't think the 3/4/5 invocation slot really are a big deal, since you'll prob sub those out once you attain spells at that level. But the high tier ones are what concern me.

But I could pretty easily make three options for each of those levels, for 12 additional options, and with WotC's resources get them balanced etc. It's 100% doable. It is by no means an insurmountable task. WotC just needs the inspiration to do it.

 

[mellored]

Just to toss out a random idea.

Instead of scaling spell slots. You get scaling spell usage.

1: Level 1 spells per long rest
3: level 1 spell once per minute
5: level 1 spells at will.
7: Level 2 spells per long rest
9: level 2 spell once per minute
11: level 2 spells at will.
13: level 3 spells once per long rest
15: level 3 spells once per minute
17: level 3 spells at-will.

 

[WanderingMystic]

After play testing the new version you really feel weaker in your lower levels. What I have been thinking about doing is adding the following ability

Pact Magic: At 3rd level your patron grants you a fraction of their immense power bestowing upon you a special spell slot that acts as if it is 2nd level. This spell slot can be used to upcast any spells known or to cast any qualifying spell on the patrons spell list. At 5th level your Pact Magic acts as a 3rd level slot, increasing to 4th at level 7 and finally 5th at level 9.
During a short rest you may regain this spell slot by compleating a ritual that takes an hour and requires you to spending a number of hit dice equal to the Pact Magic's effective level -1.

This grants the warlock 1 more spells per day with the ability to recharge this during a short rest but with a HD cost, it gives them the ability to still cast 2-5th level spells at the same time as a full caster but only let's them update spells they already know or cast one of the 2 specific spells for that level granted to you by your patron. This gives you a bit more power but keeps it very thematic and while it is only extra spell the ability to burn HD to recharge it hearkens back to what a warlock could do in the 2014 edition but reining it in.

 

[mamba]

I'm not sure how you can disagree with the math.

4 spell slots of 5th level
'+ Short Rest = 8 spell slots
'+ Short Rest = 12 spell slots
'+ Eldritch Master 1 minute ritual capstone = 16 spell slots
'+ Mystic Arcanum (6th, 7th, 8th, 9th) = 20 spell slots.

That is very basic algebra.

ah, you included the ones from MA in the spellslots, I did not, fair enough

I also am not convinced that the new version "runs circles" around the old version. Sure, maybe the new version has more power at low levels, but lacking that 3rd level spell at 5th level is viciously harsh.

you have the MA for that by then

And again, is it a good design to cut later level power to give a boost to early power? I'm not sure. Many of the classes that are discussed as needing fixed all do that same thing, sacrificing late level power in exchange for early level power. Why increase that problem?

because most campaigns do not make it past level 10.

That is not to say WotC should not try and attempt to get the high levels right as well, but a lot fewer people will notice it.
And making higher levels less powerful in general would be a good thing in my book (not that we are there yet…)