D&D General Fighting Law and Order

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My view is that if I try to play X1 Isle of Dread, as that is presented for play in the Moldvay/Cook/Marsh version of D&D, and I give my character dramatic needs beyond "complete the adventure", the game will break.
Why on earth can't you do both at once? Your character ends up on the Isle of Dread and suddenly has to put all those other concerns aside for a while and focus on sheer survival. If and when your character get back to civilization you can, if desired, pick up those other threads and continue.
 

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"Railroad", used of RPGing, describes a game in which the GM drives or coerces or forces the players into some predetermined thing.

I am identifying a type of play in which the whole game space is some sort of combination of, or pathway through, things predetermined by the GM (plus the GM's "logical" extrapolations).
In order for this to occur, the DM also needs to be roleplaying all of the PCs as well. If the players have choice to say what their PCs say and do, then the whole game space is not some sort of combination of things predetermined by the DM.
 


Yes, I certainly do. The players can also go off on their own and pursue personal stuff if they so choose. It's all up to them, and it's all their choice.
What's more, there are exactly 0 settings out there where the DM thought of every detail for every inch of the setting. Players will inevitably come up with stuff that would be in the setting that the DM didn't think of until they brought it up.
 

That's an issue that I've had with that particular skill since 1e.

Me: "What do you mean I have to roll to open this lock. I opened a lock on the other door 5 minutes ago and you said all the locks were the same.:

DM: "You need to roll under 20% to open this one."

Me: "......"
Yeah, here I'd give a great big bonus on the second lock and after succeeding on that, any other locks the same would be auto-success.
That's why I like the ability to just declare an attempt an auto success, and why I liked the take 10 and take 20 rules. Give enough time the PC will succeed in opening any lock that he's capable of opening.
But this I very much don't like, in principle or in practice.

Given enough time a PC can still fail at something she might succeed at on another day. That's why I go with the idea that the one roll represents the best you can do for the (fairly long) time being; 'cause some days you just ain't got it.
 

I see it as impossible for a non written down improv adventure to ever work for anything complicated.

Like take an even slightly complex story: Two noble families striving for dominance of a small city. The only way to do this is to have one person, a GM, write it all down. They have to make the city and both noble families. You can't just have the players randomly run into characters and have the players just randomly say "oh it's aunt Beth". Same way you can't have the players "just say" city is a huge exporter of grain and then minutes later just say "the cities only trade is in metal ores".
Although you say that it is impossible, many people - of whom I'm one - have done "no myth" RPGing that involves things that are complicated.

I have many, many actual play posts on these boards. You can read some of them if you like. Here's one that says a bit about techniques and prep (again, there is some resemblance between the approach to prep I describe here, and preparing a front in AW): https://www.enworld.org/threads/classic-traveller-a-dice-driven-game.605171/post-7301430
 

It’s still jargon that lies outside of natural language and usage for “railroad.” This suggests to me that you are cool with ivory tower jargon you already know and hate on jargon you don’t. That’s all. 🤷‍♂️
Not quite. I'm cool with jargon being used provided its being used in a manner commonly accepted within the community that uses said jargon.

Using the jargon within that community but at the same time attempting to greatly change what it means - that's gonna get pushback.
 

That just doesn't seem that different than the player deciding there are spellbooks. It just makes you roll to see if the player is right. The rules are supporting the idea that the player can generate fiction that the PC is not directly responsible for in the fiction.
What do you mean by "generate"?

The player puts a possibility on the table - there are spellbooks. The player does that by authoring nothing beyond their PC's action - "I search for spellbooks". (Vincent Baker calls this making a suggestion about the content of the shared fiction: lumpley games: Roleplaying Theory, Hardcore)

There are some RPG systems where the player, having made such a suggestion is able to deem it to be true in the fiction. An example is Marvel Heroic RP: under certain conditions, for instance, if you are playing Dr Strange or Dr Fate or a similar magic-using superhero, then you can spend a "plot point" to make it true in the fiction that you have found some useful spellbooks. (The technical label the game gives to this is creating a resource.)

I did not describe such a game in my post. The player has put a possibility on the table. The next step is to work out whether or not that possibility is true within the fiction. How do we work that out? The player doesn't get to spend a point to author it. The player doesn't even get to roll a die to author it. The action resolution rules are invoked, and these are "say 'yes' or roll the dice", with a rule about what happens on a success (the player's declared intent and task become true within the fiction) and a rule about what happens on a failure (the GM narrates an adverse consequence, paying particular regard to making sure the player's intent is thwarted within the fiction).

The mechanical process is one that the participants have all agreed to, in agreeing to play BW. (It's rules on this are super-clear.) And the mechanical process is one that takes the power out of the hands of an participant, and puts it with the dice.

I mean, suppose that you and I are deciding which movie to see. I suggest one, you suggest another. We agree to toss a coin: my movie on heads, your movie on tails. If the coin comes up tails, we're seeing your movie. But you didn't choose which movie we're seeing! We resolved that via a coin toss. The whole point of having the coin toss was to relieve both of us from the burden of decision.

EDIT: This might also help make clear the significance of "nothing happens" not being a move. (BW doesn't use the terminology of "moves", but it has a similar idea to the principle that I've stated upthread in relation to AW and DW.)

If "nothing happens" was a permissible GM narration on a failure, that might produce degenerate gameplay, because a player would not have to stake anything, or take any risk with their PC, in declaring actions like "I look for spellbooks". But every action declaration is either just "waved through" - the GM says "yes" and play goes on, somewhat similar to the idea of a "soft move" in AW/DW - or else a roll is called for, resolved as per what I've described in this post and upthread.

No action resolution leaves the situation the same coming out as it was coming in.
 
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But there is wanting to do something but not seeing how to. Never mind one true way, that’s irrelevant. I’m talking about people who want advice someone is offering - they saw an actual play and want to game like that, or see a piece that says it’s for playing like movie A or author B, or whatever. It seems like the overwhelming majority of advice I’ve seen has been more like that than alleged universal laws of gaming.
Right. There was stuff I was achieving in my play of (first) AD&D and (subsequently) Rolemaster, that I wanted to do better, and more of, without the problems those systems created for me.

I discovered Ron Edwards, who helped me discover Paul Czege's comments and games, and rediscover Robin Laws's HeroWars (which I read but didn't understand when it came out), and around the same time I discovered Burning Wheel. This stuff helped me run and complete my second "epic" RM campaign (whereas the first had come to an ignoble end after many glorious years, as I didn't have the knowledege and techniques to manage the "no myth" play that I was attempting, and every guidebook I read in the 90s told me to prep more to make my game better, which I had to work out through my own trial and error was terrible advice!).

Robin Laws in HeroWars and HeroQuest revised, and Luke Crane in the Adventure Burner for BW, were the best two bits of advice that let me run (what I think was) a great 4e D&D campaign.

And then reading Vincent Baker has helped me think more clearly about how RPGing works, and with his ideas and AW I was able to run Classic Traveller successfully (treating it in a very PbtA fashion) whereas back in the 80s it had always defeated me.

Technical insight, helpfully communicated, has absolutely made me a better GM and a better RPGer!
 

I'd like to raise an objecton to the bolded bit, as a) it's entirely possible to play those modules while running characters with well-defined goals, personalities, quirks, flaws, dreams, drama, and all the rest; and b) as phrased, this comes across as more than a little dismissive.
As I posted upthread, a module like White Plume Mountain or The Isle of Dread will basically break down if the players adopt dramatic needs for their PCs beyond "complete the adventure".

I mean, consider Aedhros the Dark Elf: that character has no reason to sail to a far island and fight whatever those brain-spiders are called (Rhagodesa?). So if I play that character, X1 doesn't even get off the ground.
 

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