D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Gammadoodler]

Keep in mind no one is asking for historical accuracy, merely a better answer than "because reasons".

I accept, for example, that Captain America is a peak human. Strong, agile, tough, 20s across the board. Does things no regular person can. I can also accept that he is Worthy of Mjolnir in the fight against Thanos. I would not accept that he could start flying and shooting lightning like Thor during Ragnarok during Endgame. I'd want to know why and how. And "he leveled up since Avengers 1" isn't cutting it.

That's my cutoff point. Where suspension of disbelief occurs. A fighter who is "mundane" can do a lot of impressive things like Cappy does, but he's not doing Thor stuff unless he has a Thor origin. (Thorigin?)

Sure the Marvel universe is also mostly set on Earth. In the context of fiction set on Earth with real humans as the baseline, I think such an expectation is reasonable.

With limited exception, this is not the case with D&D settings. To be honest, most D&D settings are more similar to Asgard. And on Asgard, folks can do a bunch of weird unearthly stuff. Some of it is magical, some of it is technological, and some of it is "just the way things are" for Asgard and its denizens.

Sometimes we get a justification, and sometimes we don't. But either way we're usually good because we know. Asgard isn't Earth and things don't have to work the same way there as they do here.

D&D settings and classes deserve the same level of license.

 

[Micah Sweet]

I'm not sure what you are replying to or which of your posts you are referring to (I don't see anything with your name on it on the same page. How far 'above' should be looking?)

The new book could be clearer about baseline assumptions, but it's not like anyone who is reading the current books could be mistaking these settings as historical reenactments.

I do not expect that someone picking up a D&D rulebook should need a reminder that it's a fantasy rpg and the stuff that happens in-game will likely differ from real world experience.

Insofar as a 'revision' to the baseline occurs, it will be a fix to a problem that shouldn't have existed.

My point is simply that if you are assuming that humans in D&D don't have the limits that humans in the real world do, with no further explanationthan that "it's D&D", then you need to be clear about that in the book.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sure the Marvel universe is also mostly set on Earth. In the context of fiction set on Earth with real humans as the baseline, I think such an expectation is reasonable.

With limited exception, this is not the case with D&D settings. To be honest, most D&D settings are more similar to Asgard. And on Asgard, folks can do a bunch of weird unearthly stuff. Some of it is magical, some of it is technological, and some of it is "just the way things are" for Asgard and its denizens.

Sometimes we get a justification, and sometimes we don't. But either way we're usually good because we know. Asgard isn't Earth and things don't have to work the same way there as they do here.

D&D settings and classes deserve the same level of license.

Asgardians are explicitly aliens though, both in the comics and the films. They're not human, and have different  explained abilities. No where does it say that humans in the Forgotten Realms can fly and shoot lightning just because.

 

[Remathilis]

Sure the Marvel universe is also mostly set on Earth. In the context of fiction set on Earth with real humans as the baseline, I think such an expectation is reasonable.

With limited exception, this is not the case with D&D settings. To be honest, most D&D settings are more similar to Asgard. And on Asgard, folks can do a bunch of weird unearthly stuff. Some of it is magical, some of it is technological, and some of it is "just the way things are" for Asgard and its denizens.

Sometimes we get a justification, and sometimes we don't. But either way we're usually good because we know. Asgard isn't Earth and things don't have to work the same way there as they do here.

D&D settings and classes deserve the same level of license.

And that's fine if D&D is updated to be Asgard. If everyone can (or has the potential to) fly and shoot lightning, the mundane cannot exist and we have a fascinating if not alien world. It's actually farther than my proposal, tbh.

Poster: fighters can't compete with magic. They need to be able to fly and shoot lightning.
Me: ok, let's make a class that emulates Thor because they are a god/alien?
Poster: Or, let's let EVERYONE in the multiverse have the ability to fly and shoot lightning!

It's bold, I'll give you that. I'm not sure how much pushback it will see for people who like their Greyhawk low magic, but at least it's consistent.

 

[Gammadoodler]

My point is simply that if you are assuming that humans in D&D don't have the limits that humans in the real world do, with no further explanationthan that "it's D&D", then you need to be clear about that in the book.

My personal viewpoint is that if the game gives people awesome abilities for their characters to use, people will have their characters use those abilities, regardless of how well tethered they are to "Earth-standard", and if the abilities are awesome enough, people will get the idea that "this isn't Kansas any more".

Maybe an explicit note to this effect could be useful though.

 

[Remathilis]

I think Captain America is a decent cutoff point. He's been able to knock down Hulk, hold helicopters in place, can lift 1,200 lbs, run 60mph, and has a warlordy subclass going on. He could take down a non-world-ending dragon on his own if needed by leaping up to its face and making it choke on its own breath weapon.

And that's what a tier 4 fighter (16+) is (or should be) doing. The question is does that compare to what a tier 4 wizard is doing?

 

[Gammadoodler]

Asgardians are explicitly aliens though, both in the comics and the films. They're not human, and have different  explained abilities. No where does it say that humans in the Forgotten Realms can fly and shoot lightning just because.

They are only aliens from the perspective of Earth humans. On Asgard, they're just neighbors, some of whom can fly.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Classes get better at their core competencies. A first level wizard is doing basic addiction, a fifth level wizard is solving geometry problems and the tenth level wizard is doing calculus. In game, that is justified by a mixture of Field experience and studying (and realistically, should involve training downtime like in older D&D). Classes get better at their supernatural abilities, they don't become supernatural after a while. What you're advocating is that a fighter becomes supernatural for no other reason than gaining XP. That they will either be exposed to enough magic to become magical OR they will become magical spontaneously because... reasons. Don't think about it.

We justify that not every person of faith gets to cast cleric spells, not every tribesman has Rage powers, not every singer gets bard spells. We talk about channelling divine power, primal spirits and the music of creation. All I'm asking is fighters and rogues get the same amount of origin to explain why they are more than normal.

I’m not arguing that at all. I’m arguing that a player can make up whatever background they want for how they’ve acquired these amazing powers. Often they acquire them while adventuring - the the story of their adventures- not the xp a player puts on their character sheet. I’m arguing that they don’t get gated behind a subclass. And in fact, I’m arguing that they aren’t magical at all. I’m arguing that their skill is SO GOOD, that they can do things that nobody else can.

You’re the one calling it magic and that’s not how I’d describe it.

 

[Gammadoodler]

And that's fine if D&D is updated to be Asgard. If everyone can (or has the potential to) fly and shoot lightning, the mundane cannot exist and we have a fascinating if not alien world. It's actually farther than my proposal, tbh.

Poster: fighters can't compete with magic. They need to be able to fly and shoot lightning.
Me: ok, let's make a class that emulates Thor because they are a god/alien?
Poster: Or, let's let EVERYONE in the multiverse have the ability to fly and shoot lightning!

It's bold, I'll give you that. I'm not sure how much pushback it will see for people who like their Greyhawk low magic, but at least it's consistent.

D&D does not need to be updated to be set on any particular setting.

It is not set on Earth.

It is already set in explicitly fantastical settings..always. That is the point.

 

[Micah Sweet]

They are only aliens from the perspective of Earth humans. On Asgard, they're just neighbors, some of whom can fly.

 We are Earth humans though. Everything is from that perspective, unless we explicitly say otherwise.