D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[CreamCloud0]

correct me if i'm wrong but didn#t we used to have stuff in previous editions like rogues being able to steal the insubstantial because they were just that skilled, it wasn't because they were using some secret magic technique but because the world they exist in just lets them extend their skill beyond the natural limitations of our world, they became masters of the concept of being a theif and that let them do things like turn invisible and walk through walls because doing those things let them be better thieves

just apply that to the fighter and other martials again

edit: maybe the fighter can't fly, but it's more than in line with the fantasy they should be capable of leaping 20ft into the air and stepping stone across the airbourne enemies making an attack against each as they go

 

[Chaosmancer]

My point is simply that if you are assuming that humans in D&D don't have the limits that humans in the real world do, with no further explanationthan that "it's D&D", then you need to be clear about that in the book.

Um... didn't we though? I mean, I know the last time I went to the doctor they drugged me up, but I'm pretty sure they didn't call down the light of their soul to heal my wounds. My sister says she can talk to ducks, but they can't actually tell her anything or communicate in a way that she can understand. I saw a kid get really angry at school once, the ghosts of his ancestors didn't swirl around him in a protective veil.

We are already depicting humans with abilities beyond human limits. Why do we need to explicitly state that we can show humans with abilities beyond human limits in a fantasy game just to have other classes have abilities beyond human limits? We didn't need it for the rest, why do we need it now?

 

[Chaosmancer]

Asgardians are explicitly aliens though, both in the comics and the films. They're not human, and have different  explained abilities. No where does it say that humans in the Forgotten Realms can fly and shoot lightning just because.

But humans of Toril are aliens. If it works for Asgardians why can't it work for Torillians?

 

[Remathilis]

I’m not arguing that at all. I’m arguing that a player can make up whatever background they want for how they’ve acquired these amazing powers. Often they acquire them while adventuring - the the story of their adventures- not the xp a player puts on their character sheet. I’m arguing that they don’t get gated behind a subclass. And in fact, I’m arguing that they aren’t magical at all. I’m arguing that their skill is SO GOOD, that they can do things that nobody else can.

You’re the one calling it magic and that’s not how I’d describe it.

Why bother with classes then? I'll just pick a bunch of abilities, make up whatever background I want to justify it and get new powers that are appropriate as I play.

 

[Chaosmancer]

correct me if i'm wrong but didn#t we used to have stuff in previous editions like rogues being able to steal the insubstantial because they were just that skilled, it wasn't because they were using some secret magic technique but because the world they exist in just lets them extend their skill beyond the natural limitations of our world, they became masters of the concept of being a theif and that let them do things like turn invisible and walk through walls because doing those things let them be better thieves

just apply that to the fighter and other martials again

You are not wrong. We did.

People have decided that is impossible now because it isn't realistic.

 

[Vaalingrade]

correct me if i'm wrong but didn#t we used to have stuff in previous editions like rogues being able to steal the insubstantial because they were just that skilled, it wasn't because they were using some secret magic technique but because the world they exist in just lets them extend their skill beyond the natural limitations of our world, they became masters of the concept of being a theif and that let them do things like turn invisible and walk through walls because doing those things let them be better thieves

just apply that to the fighter and other martials again

An NPC once crossed me.

I stole his family's love for him.

 

[Remathilis]

correct me if i'm wrong but didn#t we used to have stuff in previous editions like rogues being able to steal the insubstantial because they were just that skilled, it wasn't because they were using some secret magic technique but because the world they exist in just lets them extend their skill beyond the natural limitations of our world, they became masters of the concept of being a theif and that let them do things like turn invisible and walk through walls because doing those things let them be better thieves

just apply that to the fighter and other martials again

I'm assuming you are speaking about the Epic Level Handbook, which was never part of the core assumptions of D&D and was routinely ignored?

Because I've played Thieves in 2e onwards and I NEVER got cool things like you described. I got made irrelevant when wizards had enough scrolls, wands and slots to cast invisibility, knock, spider climb and similar magic whenever they wanted. You think fighters have it bad, 2e thief was worthless unless you were multi-classed.

So sure, we can create a level 21 onwards where all that mythic stuff lived. It's right about where 10th level magic lived too.

 

[Micah Sweet]

But humans of Toril are aliens. If it works for Asgardians why can't it work for Torillians?

Does it state anywhere that humans of the Realms can naturally do things beyond what humans in all our actual experience can? What book is that in?

 

[TwoSix]

Why bother with classes then? I'll just pick a bunch of abilities, make up whatever background I want to justify it and get new powers that are appropriate as I play.

Finally, someone who gets it.

 

[Remathilis]

Finally, someone who gets it.

A fine game (played many of them in my day) but not D&D...