D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Gammadoodler]

 We are Earth humans though. Everything is from that perspective, unless we explicitly say otherwise.

And?

If I told you you were going to play a human superhero in a superhero game would you expect to have superpowers? Would "Your character is just that strong/skilled/fast etc." be an unacceptable power source in a superhero game or would we need a bespoke radioactive spider for you before you feel adequately justified to play your superheroic character?

 

[Micah Sweet]

And?

If I told you you were going to play a human superhero in a superhero game would you expect to have superpowers? Would "Your character is just that strong/skilled/fast etc." be an unacceptable power source in a superhero game or would we need a bespoke radioactive spider for you before you feel adequately justified to play your superheroic character?

Personally, if I had explicit superpowers in a game, I would want an explanation for them. If that game was class-based, and the powers I get come from there, I would want the class to provide that explanation.

 

[TwoSix]

A fine game (played many of them in my day) but not D&D...

One of my games works like that, and I'm running it on the 5e engine. I'm just not using the class part.

My personal feeling is that fits the type of fiction that D&D wants to tell better than the class system does, since the primary focus of progression is acquisition of items, but I understand that the class system has its own strengths. I just think this thread is a good example of the shortcomings of a class system, specifically one where the class not only determines the character's starting point, but controls their growth and progression.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Why bother with classes then? I'll just pick a bunch of abilities, make up whatever background I want to justify it and get new powers that are appropriate as I play.

Sure, if you want. There’s lots of games that work like that already.

But, in D&D, you get powers as you level. Those levels represent expertise in a certain nich - like spellcasting or praying or fighting. A fighter can attack 8 times in 6 seconds with deadly accuracy and you don’t seem to be arguing that the class as-is needs some kind of godlike bloodline but suggest they can jump 30 feet in the air or have the rogue be able to dance from branch to branch on tree tops feels like a stretch.

There’s lots of monsters that do amazing things that are impossible in reality but aren’t even considered magical in D&D. A dragon’s fire breath, the existence of oozes. Saying that someone is so good at a skill that they can do something unusual or even impossible doesn’t seem like a huge leap, in my mind.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Personally, if I had explicit superpowers in a game, I would want an explanation for them. If that game was class-based, and the powers I get come from there, I would want the class to provide that explanation.

And as I asked would, "you are just that strong, fast, skilled" or.."you dont know" be an adequate explanation.

It's not like there isn't precedent for this in superhero lore.

 

[Minigiant]

So by "strength" you only mean lifting capacity? That would have been a useful thing to know, because that is so narrowly defined that it changes the entire point of your post. (and also has nothing to do with your NPC stuff, but we are moving on)

Sure, an Ogre with their 19 strength can lift a thousand pounds and a human can only lift 600 lbs. But the point isn't whether or not lifting 600 lbs is superhuman strength. The point is this:

The human lifts 600 lbs
The elf lifts 600 lbs
the dwarf lifts 600 lbs
the Warforged lifts 600 lbs
the half angel lifts 600 lbs
the half demon lifts 600 lbs
the half earth elemental lifts 600 lbs
the gnome lifts 600 lbs
the half vampire lifts 600 lbs
The Minotaur lifts 600 lbs

The idea of a human limitation makes less sense when you realize that being a vampire-blooded minotaur... doesn't make you stronger than a DnD human. Dante and Vergil from Devil May Cry are able to do things like catch bullets on their sword and fire them back by swinging the sword, and that is because they are the children of demons, but being the child of a demon... doesn't make you stronger than a DnD human.

So, this conception that we need to limit non-magical martials because of human limits... doesn't make a lot of sense. My fighter could be a child who was blessed by the god of war (Aasimar) and they would be no stronger than the farm boy fighter who left to impressive the mayor's daughter.

I didn't say we need to limit the martials to human limits.

I'm just stating the current definitions of Human, Inhuman, Superhuman, and Mythic in 5e.

Not I think pure nonmagical martials should be allowed to reach Superhuman and in rare cases mythic. Magical martials can already.

 

[Micah Sweet]

And as I asked would, "you are just that strong, fast, skilled" be an adequate explanation.

It's not like there isn't precedent for this in superhero lore.

Not really no. Not for me. That explanation, by itself, seems too hand-wavey for me.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Not really no. Not for me. That explanation, by itself, seems too hand-wavey for me.

Genetic lotto winner..hand-wavey
Perfected technique..hand-wavey
Mysterious powers..hand-wavey
Radioactive arachnid..good clean fun.

I don't get it.

I guess we just disagree.

 

[Remathilis]

There’s lots of monsters that do amazing things that are impossible in reality but aren’t even considered magical in D&D. A dragon’s fire breath, the existence of oozes. Saying that someone is so good at a skill that they can do something unusual or even impossible doesn’t seem like a huge leap, in my mind.

Oh they most certainly are. There was a reason druids could turn into mundane earth animals but not displacer beasts and owlbears (prior to the movie at least). The game used to keep some notion that things that also exist in the real world act like they do in the real world, and if they don't exist in the real world there is a magical explanation for it. Gods, demon lords, "a wizard did it". It gives the world a frame of reference that without makes the world alien.

But if that's what people want, go nuts. Cats speak common. Horses run on air. Wolves breathe underwater, humans can jump 30 feet vertical leap. Because: dragons.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Genetic lotto winner..hand-wavey
Perfected technique..hand-wavey
Mysterious powers..hand-wavey
Radioactive arachnid..good clean fun.

I don't get it.

I guess we just disagree.

Genetic lotto winner means you're the best human at everything, through chance coincidence of genetic factors. That's an explanation.

Perfected technique means you've learned something which, if beyond human, is by definition supernatural. That's an explanation.

Mysterious powers, even if unexplained (and I would hope they are eventually) gives you superhuman abilities. That's an explanation, albeit not a great one.

Radioactive spider bite is definitely an explanation, as is exposure to cosmic rays, "heavy water", finding a cool ring, or being a mutant

"I'm just that good", isn't an explanation, it's a catchphrase.