D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[TwoSix]

I’m actually suggesting it be part of most mundane martial classes. Not an archetype. The point being, that by tier 3 and 4 your character should be doing things for that are epic just like a wizard who can cast meteor swarm or a Druid that can cast Earthquake.

My personal point of view is that "mundane" classes simply don't exist in the D&D milieu, except for in the very early levels. The transformation from "mundane" to "preternatural" to "mythical" is simply the point of a fighter's (or whatever other mundane class we're speaking of) leveling journey.

There simply isn't room for a class that stays within the biological limits of humans on Earth in a game based on leveling to a point where the characters can kill enormous dragons and demons.

 

[doctorbadwolf]

So, this thread is super-long and I can't really go through every post but I'll post an idea anyways:

As was mentioned, give fighter-types supernatural abilities and tie them to tier. At tier 3, give them an ability and at tier 4 give them another(more powerful) one and boost the first one(s).

Tie those abilities to skills so that they are not innately magical but based on mundane skills/talent. These folk are basically becoming demi-gods like Cuhulaine or hercules.

Flying creatures? No problem, my athletics is +12 and I can jump 30 feet+5 feet/point of proficiency.
Plane shift? No problem, I can cut a rift in time-space with my sword
Force wall? No problem, I can head butt it and shatter it.

Or whatever. More creative people than me can think this stuff up. Essentially, have a list of special abilities that are tied to skills. At a certain level, you can choose a number of skills and the associated special abilities get unlocked.

Athletics is feat of strength abilities
Acrobatics is flying/jumping and teleporting abilities
Thieves Tools lets you open portals to other planes, open a door through a force wall
etc...be creative.

Skills, tools, and weapons, could all have special mythic uses, in fact.

One that drives me nuts in its absence is the ability to block a line or come of magical damage with a shield.

 

[Gammadoodler]

My personal point of view is that "mundane" classes simply don't exist in the D&D milieu, except for in the very early levels. The transformation from "mundane" to "preternatural" to "mythical" is simply the point of a fighter's (or whatever other mundane class we're speaking of) leveling journey.

There simply isn't room for a class that stays within the biological limits of humans on Earth in a game based on leveling to a point where the characters can kill enormous dragons and demons.

Especially considering that only one of the many races/species even has a somewhat justifiable narrative tether to the biological limits of humans on Earth.

Like what is the case for 'mundane' elves, gnomes, tielflings, aasimar, dragonborn, warforged, etc.?

 

[Chaosmancer]

I'll again say it's how you play the game. If you want to solve the problem, it can be done easily.

Just make anti, wild, suppressive, disruptive, and absorbing magic effects COMMON in the game. So, simply put, you would tell a player of a magic using character to "just go sit in the corner, you can't play for a bit" every couple minutes.

Now sure a lot of DMs feel bad saying that. And many players feel bad sitting in the corner. BUT, once you get past all the bad feelings: The PROBLEM is SOLVED.

Sure everyone does not "like", but it works 100% of the time.

Or, in other words, ruining casters at every possible opportunity is preferable than giving some buffs to martials.

 

[Gammadoodler]

Imagine that you went into a town and you saw the mayor fly. No wings, no spells, no magic items. He just walks on air. You ask a citizen of the town why the mayor can fly and the person shrugs and says "he's the best politician in the realm. He just can fly because of it. His knowledge of laws and ability to lead others let him fly."

Alternatively, what if the towns person says

"In their youth, the mayor was a great adventurer. They fought and killed several dragons, their party once went down to hell and killed a devil prince. For a while, the mayor was a regular consort with agents of the fey. Somewhere in all that, something must have happened, because when they came back, they could fly. No one knows exactly what happens, but this sometimes occurs with people who have done great deeds like the mayor has."

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

I know. And I don't think it belongs with "mundane" martial classes. Which is why I proposed getting rid of "mundane" classes. If you want your PC doing things that are extraordinary, they need an extraordinary reason beyond leveling into it.

Imagine that you went into a town and you saw the mayor fly. No wings, no spells, no magic items. He just walks on air. You ask a citizen of the town why the mayor can fly and the person shrugs and says "he's the best politician in the realm. He just can fly because of it. His knowledge of laws and ability to lead others let him fly." Would you accept that as an answer? What if he needs that ability to fly so he can survey the local lands and keep up with evil wizards who threaten his lands. That seems appropriate, right?

But that's no longer mundane. And if the idea is that a fighter is mundane, he's kinda shackled by what mundane people do. But make him supernatural, give him magical bloodlines or alchemy or the Force or something. Then you open the game where warriors get abilities that rival spells that meet what magic spells do.

But the same goes for any class. Why can the wizard suddenly fireball today when he couldn’t yesterday?

The player and DM make up the narrative to justify this sudden change. The same could be done for a fighter. During his adventures, stuff happens. A mix of skill and and the fallout of many adventures make this person superhuman. Sure, when you level, it “turns on” but that’s not the narrative.

The idea that a rogue is so skilled at lock picks that he can open portals to other planes is mythic. How did he get so talented? Maybe he practiced really hard. One Punch Man ran 10 miles and did 100 crunches every day for a year and now he can defeat any enemy with a single punch.

The point is that it’s a story for each player to tell with their character. Limiting that to an archetype just leads to the same issue the OP is describing: that normal fighters can’t compete with spellcasting classes unless you create a niche that is ‘magical’.

 

[Remathilis]

Especially considering that only one of the many races/species even has a somewhat justifiable narrative tether to the biological limits of humans on Earth.

Like what is the case for 'mundane' elves, gnomes, tielflings, aasimar, dragonborn, warforged, etc.?

There isn't, and that's kinda the point.

We accept that a dragonborn has a magical origin. We use dragon gods and dragon blood and hatched from dragon eggs to explain 7 ft tall reptile humanoids who breathe fire. Nobody is using evolutionary biology to justify them, but we still created a magical origin story and a rational for how they exist. If someone asks why a dragonborn can breathe fire, we don't say it's because they need it to be balanced against other species, we come up with some magical handwavium to explain it in fiction.

 

[Gammadoodler]

There isn't, and that's kinda the point.

We accept that a dragonborn has a magical origin. We use dragon gods and dragon blood and hatched from dragon eggs to explain 7 ft tall reptile humanoids who breathe fire. Nobody is using evolutionary biology to justify them, but we still created a magical origin story and a rational for how they exist. If someone asks why a dragonborn can breathe fire, we don't say it's because they need it to be balanced against other species, we come up with some magical handwavium to explain it in fiction.

And yet a dragonborn fighter is expected to be no more capable than a 'mundane' earth human, even at max level, because the fighter is 'mundane'.

My point is that this standard of 'mundanity' is at odds with even the most baseline assumptions of most D&D worlds. We are already applying it unnecessarily.

 

[Chaosmancer]

The point is the a human doesn't get to Superhuman strength.

A human is not large nor has Powerful Build. An the average and elite human have lower strength than an ogre or strong giant.

So how strong is your warforged.
Human strength?
Magically or Alchemically enhanced humanoid strength?
Large giant?
Huge giant?

How many pounds can he lift.

So by "strength" you only mean lifting capacity? That would have been a useful thing to know, because that is so narrowly defined that it changes the entire point of your post. (and also has nothing to do with your NPC stuff, but we are moving on)

Sure, an Ogre with their 19 strength can lift a thousand pounds and a human can only lift 600 lbs. But the point isn't whether or not lifting 600 lbs is superhuman strength. The point is this:

The human lifts 600 lbs
The elf lifts 600 lbs
the dwarf lifts 600 lbs
the Warforged lifts 600 lbs
the half angel lifts 600 lbs
the half demon lifts 600 lbs
the half earth elemental lifts 600 lbs
the gnome lifts 600 lbs
the half vampire lifts 600 lbs
The Minotaur lifts 600 lbs

The idea of a human limitation makes less sense when you realize that being a vampire-blooded minotaur... doesn't make you stronger than a DnD human. Dante and Vergil from Devil May Cry are able to do things like catch bullets on their sword and fire them back by swinging the sword, and that is because they are the children of demons, but being the child of a demon... doesn't make you stronger than a DnD human.

So, this conception that we need to limit non-magical martials because of human limits... doesn't make a lot of sense. My fighter could be a child who was blessed by the god of war (Aasimar) and they would be no stronger than the farm boy fighter who left to impressive the mayor's daughter.

 

[Remathilis]

But the same goes for any class. Why can the wizard suddenly fireball today when he couldn’t yesterday?

The player and DM make up the narrative to justify this sudden change. The same could be done for a fighter. During his adventures, stuff happens. A mix of skill and and the fallout of many adventures make this person superhuman. Sure, when you level, it “turns on” but that’s not the narrative.

The idea that a rogue is so skilled at lock picks that he can open portals to other planes is mythic. How did he get so talented? Maybe he practiced really hard. One Punch Man ran 10 miles and did 100 crunches every day for a year and now he can defeat any enemy with a single punch.

The point is that it’s a story for each player to tell with their character. Limiting that to an archetype just leads to the same issue the OP is describing: that normal fighters can’t compete with spellcasting classes unless you create a niche that is ‘magical’.

Classes get better at their core competencies. A first level wizard is doing basic addiction, a fifth level wizard is solving geometry problems and the tenth level wizard is doing calculus. In game, that is justified by a mixture of Field experience and studying (and realistically, should involve training downtime like in older D&D). Classes get better at their supernatural abilities, they don't become supernatural after a while. What you're advocating is that a fighter becomes supernatural for no other reason than gaining XP. That they will either be exposed to enough magic to become magical OR they will become magical spontaneously because... reasons. Don't think about it.

We justify that not every person of faith gets to cast cleric spells, not every tribesman has Rage powers, not every singer gets bard spells. We talk about channelling divine power, primal spirits and the music of creation. All I'm asking is fighters and rogues get the same amount of origin to explain why they are more than normal.