D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[bloodtide]

I'll again say it's how you play the game. If you want to solve the problem, it can be done easily.

Just make anti, wild, suppressive, disruptive, and absorbing magic effects COMMON in the game. So, simply put, you would tell a player of a magic using character to "just go sit in the corner, you can't play for a bit" every couple minutes.

Now sure a lot of DMs feel bad saying that. And many players feel bad sitting in the corner. BUT, once you get past all the bad feelings: The PROBLEM is SOLVED.

Sure everyone does not "like", but it works 100% of the time.

 

[Hussar]

I'll again say it's how you play the game. If you want to solve the problem, it can be done easily.

Just make anti, wild, suppressive, disruptive, and absorbing magic effects COMMON in the game. So, simply put, you would tell a player of a magic using character to "just go sit in the corner, you can't play for a bit" every couple minutes.

Now sure a lot of DMs feel bad saying that. And many players feel bad sitting in the corner. BUT, once you get past all the bad feelings: The PROBLEM is SOLVED.

Sure everyone does not "like", but it works 100% of the time.

Doing something like this without being REALLY clear about it before the campaign starts is a very bad idea.

 

[Minigiant]

Again, this was the point I was getting at originally. When I asked where my warforged landed on your chart, when I pointed out that humans can be stronger than ogres, I wasn't trying to get into a discussion on the limits of NPC creation, but to instead point out that not all PCs are human, and earthling limitations in DnD aren't something that make a whole lot of sense.

The point is the a human doesn't get to Superhuman strength.

A human is not large nor has Powerful Build. An the average and elite human have lower strength than an ogre or strong giant.

So how strong is your warforged.
Human strength?
Magically or Alchemically enhanced humanoid strength?
Large giant?
Huge giant?

How many pounds can he lift.

 

[Remathilis]

Dragon knight- ranger
Magitech gadget - artificer (which easily equal any combat oriented class)
Nightblade- monk

Like I said, you’ve already got your wish. The actual cool classes are there. They’re just not fighters.

In that other polling thread a third of tables don’t have a single non-caster. I wonder how many tables do not have a single full caster? People interpret the other thread as evidence of the popularity of non-casters. I interpret that as a fail. When a third of tables don’t have a single example of something, and another good chunk only has one, that’s not very popular.

I’m going to start another poll but switching it around - full casters instead of non-casters. My prediction is that close to 100% of tables will have at least one full caster and a majority will have two. A large minority will have three.

That’s my prediction anyway.

I will admit I'm not always a huge fan of refluxing, so while it would do in a pinch, it's the equivalent to war-bards as warlords or sorcerer as psionicist. So much better could be done.

 

[James Gasik]

I'll again say it's how you play the game. If you want to solve the problem, it can be done easily.

Just make anti, wild, suppressive, disruptive, and absorbing magic effects COMMON in the game. So, simply put, you would tell a player of a magic using character to "just go sit in the corner, you can't play for a bit" every couple minutes.

Now sure a lot of DMs feel bad saying that. And many players feel bad sitting in the corner. BUT, once you get past all the bad feelings: The PROBLEM is SOLVED.

Sure everyone does not "like", but it works 100% of the time.

And then people stop playing casters altogether. Congratulations, you basically banned them without actually being honest and saying so.

People play D&D to, and I know this is hard to grasp for some people, play the game and have fun. Being told "yeah, you can't actually do anything, just sit there and watch" is something that should happen less often, not more often. Unfortunately, it's baked into the game on so many levels it's not funny, from making your single attack per turn at low levels and whiffing, to casting a save or nothing spell and the DM rolling a 18 on the die, to crowd control effects like paralysis.

If the spells are problematic, deal with the spells directly by banning or adjusting them. If you're ok with spells and feel the non-casters are lacking, off them "secret grandmaster training" or let them acquire a boon by eating the heart of a legendary beast.

Saying "you will do nothing 25% of the time because I say so" is just punishing people for wanting to have fun. How DM's who do this sort of thing still have players astounds me.

Now I know, having said that, someone is going to jump in and say "this is how I have run my games for X years, and they have no complaints". Maybe your game is just that good otherwise. Maybe your players are held captive in your basement and they have developed Stockholm Syndrome. I don't know. But I think all this talk of "magic nullification" just reeks of old school mean-spirited DMing, where the players aren't your friends, but your victims.

I've repeated these wise words many times, and I'll do it again. You shouldn't balance mechanics by making them obnoxious to deal with.

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

So, this thread is super-long and I can't really go through every post but I'll post an idea anyways:

As was mentioned, give fighter-types supernatural abilities and tie them to tier. At tier 3, give them an ability and at tier 4 give them another(more powerful) one and boost the first one(s).

Tie those abilities to skills so that they are not innately magical but based on mundane skills/talent. These folk are basically becoming demi-gods like Cuhulaine or hercules.

Flying creatures? No problem, my athletics is +12 and I can jump 30 feet+5 feet/point of proficiency.
Plane shift? No problem, I can cut a rift in time-space with my sword
Force wall? No problem, I can head butt it and shatter it.

Or whatever. More creative people than me can think this stuff up. Essentially, have a list of special abilities that are tied to skills. At a certain level, you can choose a number of skills and the associated special abilities get unlocked.

Athletics is feat of strength abilities
Acrobatics is flying/jumping and teleporting abilities
Thieves Tools lets you open portals to other planes, open a door through a force wall
etc...be creative.

 

[Remathilis]

So, this thread is super-long and I can't really go through every post but I'll post an idea anyways:

As was mentioned, give fighter-types supernatural abilities and tie them to tier. At tier 3, give them an ability and at tier 4 give them another(more powerful) one and boost the first one(s).

Tie those abilities to skills so that they are not innately magical but based on mundane skills/talent. These folk are basically becoming demi-gods like Cuhulaine or hercules.

Flying creatures? No problem, my athletics is +12 and I can jump 30 feet+5 feet/point of proficiency.
Plane shift? No problem, I can cut a rift in time-space with my sword
Force wall? No problem, I can head butt it and shatter it.

Or whatever. More creative people than me can think this stuff up. Essentially, have a list of special abilities that are tied to skills. At a certain level, you can choose a number of skills and the associated special abilities get unlocked.

Athletics is feat of strength abilities
Acrobatics is flying/jumping and teleporting abilities
Thieves Tools lets you open portals to other planes, open a door through a force wall
etc...be creative.

Rename the class to "Demigod" and that will work. You're a mighty warrior tapping into a hidden power source and as you level, you unlock abilities beyond mortal limitations.

(On a serious note: I think the name Paragon would fit this archetype better. Mythic warrior in training).

 

[TaranTheWanderer]

Rename the class to "Demigod" and that will work. You're a mighty warrior tapping into a hidden power source and as you level, you unlock abilities beyond mortal limitations.

(On a serious note: I think the name Paragon would fit this archetype better. Mythic warrior in training).

I’m actually suggesting it be part of most mundane martial classes. Not an archetype. The point being, that by tier 3 and 4 your character should be doing things for that are epic just like a wizard who can cast meteor swarm or a Druid that can cast Earthquake.

 

[Remathilis]

I’m actually suggesting it be part of most mundane martial classes. Not an archetype. The point being, that by tier 3 and 4 your character should be doing things for that are epic just like a wizard who can cast meteor swarm or a Druid that can cast Earthquake.

I know. And I don't think it belongs with "mundane" martial classes. Which is why I proposed getting rid of "mundane" classes. If you want your PC doing things that are extraordinary, they need an extraordinary reason beyond leveling into it.

Imagine that you went into a town and you saw the mayor fly. No wings, no spells, no magic items. He just walks on air. You ask a citizen of the town why the mayor can fly and the person shrugs and says "he's the best politician in the realm. He just can fly because of it. His knowledge of laws and ability to lead others let him fly." Would you accept that as an answer? What if he needs that ability to fly so he can survey the local lands and keep up with evil wizards who threaten his lands. That seems appropriate, right?

But that's no longer mundane. And if the idea is that a fighter is mundane, he's kinda shackled by what mundane people do. But make him supernatural, give him magical bloodlines or alchemy or the Force or something. Then you open the game where warriors get abilities that rival spells that meet what magic spells do.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I'll again say it's how you play the game. If you want to solve the problem, it can be done easily.

Just make anti, wild, suppressive, disruptive, and absorbing magic effects COMMON in the game. So, simply put, you would tell a player of a magic using character to "just go sit in the corner, you can't play for a bit" every couple minutes.

Now sure a lot of DMs feel bad saying that. And many players feel bad sitting in the corner. BUT, once you get past all the bad feelings: The PROBLEM is SOLVED.

Sure everyone does not "like", but it works 100% of the time.

So the problem of some players not getting to have fun is to make sure no one has fun?