D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[Hussar]

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B: Wait a minute, doesn’t every martial class have the ability to gain magic abilities through subclasses, races and feats. Can’t everyone know do some amazing things irrespective of what class they are provided they invest a little bit. Invisibility, flying, throwing fire bolts, magic shields, can all be taken by martial classes now right?
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And so no changes are allowed. The only solution is to turn my fighter into a gish caster specifically using spells. Spells that are drawn from existing caster lists. At best I’m creating second or third rate magical effects compared to a “real” caster.

Yay.

 

[Minigiant]

You aren't making any sense. An elite human tops at 20 in base 5e. They top at 25 if they are a barbarian with a single epic boon in One DnD (though they can go to 30 it says). So, I'm not sure why you are saying they roll an 18, get a +1 and then are done, when that simply is false.

An orc has the same limits, though I suppose powerful and a war god's blessing could give them a 27 in One DnD. However, a human could ALSO get a war god's blessing and so I'm not really sure why that should count.

I also don't know why you are assuming an ogre gets a +9 strength and can somehow get a 27, or why a storm giant gets a +19 strength and therefore can get a 37. Like, mathematically I get you subtracted 10 from their strength scores, but I don't know why you would think that means anything?

By your logic a baseline Empyreon gets a +20 to strength, and therefore would max out at 38, but we also have Aspects of Tiamat with 30 strength, so can we assume if she decided to make an aspect that was really strong she could make one with a 38 strength instead of a 30 strength? That just... isn't how these numbers are supposed to work. You can't take the statblock and then assume it is just a -10 to get racial mods.

I was taking about NPCs

 

[Chaosmancer]

Personally, I think theoretically universally accessible (or randomly accessible) supernatural ability that are unevenly and variably distributed is the best model. That's the engine that makes a bunch of modern fantasy work. It's fine (and frankly preferable) if character classes represent exceptional individuals and are a fairly rare trait in the general populace. You can even do "genius of hard work" if you have some martial cultivation model.

Yeah, I really want the genius of hardwork model for supernatural abilities. It is just very good in a narrative sense.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I was taking about NPCs

Since when does "The elite human tops at Strength 19 by rolling a 18 with a +1 racial." refer to anything you do with an NPC statblock? I don't roll for NPC statblocks, why would I?

 

[CreamCloud0]

I do not understand this hardline resistance to saying all D&D classes have explicit magical/supernatural abilities beyond the abilities of normal people, but sure. If we can't make the make fighters and rogues explicitly magical, we'll make the whole damn world explicitly magical.

i'm not saying i want 'nonmagic' classes limited to the abilties of ordinary people, what i'm saying is i can we have them without massive overtones of magic thematically ingrained on every action they do to justify it, so that the people who just want to play 'the master swordsman who is 100% skill no magic needed' isn't throwing around beams from their sword or growing 3ft to justify advantage on some strength grapple check or something

like you can throw a sword across the battlefield for a ranged attack it doesn't need to be some magic blast.
their blade can pierce the demon's resistant skin through skill and technique not because they have an enchanted weapon.
they know how to properly taunt and get under people's skin to make enemies run up to them against their better wellbeing rather than mind controlling them to do it.

 

[bloodtide]

Well, I encounter this often with new players. Just a couple weeks ago.

Player:There’s a martial v caster disparity!

DM: Don't worry I run a classic style 2e/BECMI game that makes everything work out. Here are my house rules (basicaly NOT be a fan of magic characters and do NOT give magic a free pass)

Player, after reading: What you CAN"T play the game like this! You must play the game with "THE" offical "agreed upon" rule changes and style THAT not only creates the martial v caster disparity, but exacerbates it!

The "DM must be a fan of the characters" or a Buddy Dm to the players is a HUGE one that effects the game. Example:

DM: The skeletal warriors rise up from the ground and advance.

Player Bob: No problem, my character Enchanter Bobo cast 'mass charm' on them! Haha!

DM(Fan/buddy): Oh, wait undead are not effected by charm spells like mass charm. Don't waste your spell. We will say you did not do that, and you can take another action.

VS

DM: The skeletal warriors rise up from the ground and advance.

Player Bob: No problem, my character Enchanter Bobo cast 'mass charm' on them! Haha!

DM: your cast spell has no effect on the skeletal warriors and they continue to advance forward.

Player Bob: Wait What? I just wasted a spell?!?!?!

DM nods: Yes

 

[Remathilis]

And so no changes are allowed. The only solution is to turn my fighter into a gish caster specifically using spells. Spells that are drawn from existing caster lists. At best I’m creating second or third rate magical effects compared to a “real” caster.

Yay.

Not at all. Turn the fighter into the monk.

Seriously.

Supernatural abilities? Check.
Vague handwavium power-source (ki/spirit)? Check.
No Spellcasting unless you pick a subclass that allows it? Check.

Nobody in their right mind calls the monk a gish. Yet they are explicitly supernatural and have magical abilities. The same is true of blood hunters and to a certain degree barbarians (4e barbarians were PRIMAL, not MARTIAL). The fix is simple. But people INSIST the fighter cannot have an ounce of magic to explain his supernatural abilities.

 

[SteveC]

The argument goes…

A: There’s a martial v caster disparity!

B: I’m not sure there is

Honestly that's where this argument really stops and just starts to turn silly. I know you play PF2 and the martials there are given very strong marks there. The fighter is considered an S tier class. The idea is that 5E could take a redesign for them to make them more effective and relevant. But if there's no balance issues, why would we do that?

There are some pretty objective problems with fighters: there are entire parts of the game that they don't get to participate in. The idea here is to address those issues. But if you don't care about that, well I'm not sure the point of even engaging in this thread is. And WotC largely seems to agree with you, so looking at designs like 4E or PF2 or the Book of Nine Swords or Iron Heroes or ... any other game that's designed around the premise of letting martial characters do more isn't relevant. But that's the premise of this thread, so I'm all in to discuss that.

I'm certainly not saying that people don't enjoy fighters since I'm in a game with with one now. I am saying that when we're doing anything other than having a battle, they don't have anything to offer. And that's something that absolutely can be worked on with game design. The game I'm in is low level, just 4th level. Spells like Invisibility, Levitate, and Suggestion have changed the way we approached game play and that's at a very early part of the game. Our fighter waits patiently to roll initiative, and does okay once that starts. The question is: can we change the fighter to give them options to better work out exploration or social encounters? To make them truly the terror of the battlefield that a PF2 fighter is? I think there's lots of options to do that. But that's only because I actually see that as a problem.

 

[Minigiant]

Since when does "The elite human tops at Strength 19 by rolling a 18 with a +1 racial." refer to anything you do with an NPC statblock? I don't roll for NPC statblocks, why would I?

We know that PCs have a cap of 20.
NPCs can have rolled stats.

An NPC can break the rules have stats high or lower than the normal. An Orc NPC can have 22 STR before getting to level 20.

There is an NPC ogre out there with STR higher than 19. And with them being large, this strong ogre can lift almost a ton. That's super strength.

 

[Hussar]

Well, I encounter this often with new players. Just a couple weeks ago.

Player:There’s a martial v caster disparity!

DM: Don't worry I run a classic style 2e/BECMI game that makes everything work out. Here are my house rules (basicaly NOT be a fan of magic characters and do NOT give magic a free pass)

Player, after reading: What you CAN"T play the game like this! You must play the game with "THE" offical "agreed upon" rule changes and style THAT not only creates the martial v caster disparity, but exacerbates it!

The "DM must be a fan of the characters" or a Buddy Dm to the players is a HUGE one that effects the game. Example:

DM: The skeletal warriors rise up from the ground and advance.

Player Bob: No problem, my character Enchanter Bobo cast 'mass charm' on them! Haha!

DM(Fan/buddy): Oh, wait undead are not effected by charm spells like mass charm. Don't waste your spell. We will say you did not do that, and you can take another action.

VS

DM: The skeletal warriors rise up from the ground and advance.

Player Bob: No problem, my character Enchanter Bobo cast 'mass charm' on them! Haha!

DM: your cast spell has no effect on the skeletal warriors and they continue to advance forward.

Player Bob: Wait What? I just wasted a spell?!?!?!

DM nods: Yes

Skeletons are not immune to charm. The player is right.

See, it’s not about “buddy DM”. The game is hard wired to grant massive advantages to casters.