D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[CreamCloud0]

Chefs use the magic that flows throughout the world to create magnificent feasts that can heal wounds, cure disease and even illicit emotions in those who eat it.

Smiths use the magic that flows throughout the world to craft tools, armor and weapons that never break, rust, or dull.

Farmers use the magic that flows throughout the world to grow large, blight-resistent crops capable of feeding empires.

Horses use the magic that flows throughout the world to run fast as the wind over land, water and the sky itself.

Handy explanation, magic of the world. Makes anything mundane into a supernatural ability. And don't get me wrong, I'm actually a fan of it; a world so infused with magic that the fantastical is commonplace is both compelling and on brand for D&D. It's not a world that resembles Earth anymore, but that's not a bad thing either. But it does ask D&D to lean towards the Eberron side of the scale rather than the Middle Earth side.

So yes, that works. If we are abandoning the notion that D&D resembles reality. It never really did that well to begin with, so it's not a loss to me.

if we make it so that everything is implicitly magical in the fantasy world including the pure martial fighters does that mean we can stop needing to explicitly apply magical flavour justifications anytime they do anything that's slightly beyond what a guy at the gym would be capable of in the real world?

 

[Krachek]

The genre is always a problem. Take the Dumb Superman problem. Superman, and many of his super villains, are immune to any mundane harm. So what do we see in a Superman media? The bad guy picks up an truck and hits Superman with it and Superman flies backwards, through three buildings, and then just gets up like nothing happened. It is SUCH A WASTE OF TIME.

Then you get the Power problem. Take Thantos. By the start of Infinity War he could defeat the Avengers with just a pinky finger wiggle. Why does he not do this. One wiggle and they all turn into bubbles: Remember how easily he took out the Guardians of the Galaxy?

Or like the end of X-Men The Last Stand. As soon as the X-Men show up....Magento could have EASILY sent both Colossus and Wolverine to Mexico or way out into the Pacific Ocean. But he does not.

Written fantasy very rarely apply the logic and the pragmatism to would use players in same situation. But the result is what most viewers and readers want to be satisfied. Even based on true life story are usually highly wrap up to produce a good entertaining story.

The same thing would be used to adapt DnD played sessions to make a movie or a novel. You would have to wrap up things and cut a lot of things that make sense only for a game.

There are tables that work to produce a good story and everyone bend rules and their actions to produce a nice scenic result. There are tables that apply harsh and pragmatic play just to finish off the adventure. It is a choice of play style.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Sure, but my point is, the Fighter already has several abilities that, if you think about it, make no sense if one claims they are grounded and non-fantastic in nature. Who needs Hit Dice? 24d10+24xCon free healing a day, the ability to take extra actions, the power to reroll failed saves (it's terrible, but it's certainly not something normal people can do!), the ability to attack twice as much as any other combat-focused class- is it possible the Fighter is already fantastic, and we don't really need a justification to give them additional powers?

The problem of course is that none of those things necessarily present as supernatural abilities in play. If you want to add things that do, some will require that justification.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Chefs use the magic that flows throughout the world to create magnificent feasts that can heal wounds, cure disease and even illicit emotions in those who eat it.

Smiths use the magic that flows throughout the world to craft tools, armor and weapons that never break, rust, or dull.

Farmers use the magic that flows throughout the world to grow large, blight-resistent crops capable of feeding empires.

Horses use the magic that flows throughout the world to run fast as the wind over land, water and the sky itself.

Handy explanation, magic of the world. Makes anything mundane into a supernatural ability. And don't get me wrong, I'm actually a fan of it; a world so infused with magic that the fantastical is commonplace is both compelling and on brand for D&D. It's not a world that resembles Earth anymore, but that's not a bad thing either. But it does ask D&D to lean towards the Eberron side of the scale rather than the Middle Earth side.

So yes, that works. If we are abandoning the notion that D&D resembles reality. It never really did that well to begin with, so it's not a loss to me.

That absolutely does work, as long as you're very explicit about it, in print, probably in both the PH and the DMG (or whatever 3pp product you're talking about). That assumption would need to be very clear in the books. In short, it would require taking a side.

 

[Krachek]

Chefs use the magic that flows throughout the world to create magnificent feasts that can heal wounds, cure disease and even illicit emotions in those who eat it.

Smiths use the magic that flows throughout the world to craft tools, armor and weapons that never break, rust, or dull.

Farmers use the magic that flows throughout the world to grow large, blight-resistent crops capable of feeding empires.

Horses use the magic that flows throughout the world to run fast as the wind over land, water and the sky itself.

Handy explanation, magic of the world. Makes anything mundane into a supernatural ability. And don't get me wrong, I'm actually a fan of it; a world so infused with magic that the fantastical is commonplace is both compelling and on brand for D&D. It's not a world that resembles Earth anymore, but that's not a bad thing either. But it does ask D&D to lean towards the Eberron side of the scale rather than the Middle Earth side.

So yes, that works. If we are abandoning the notion that D&D resembles reality. It never really did that well to begin with, so it's not a loss to me.

Actually the game allow that.
Players describe want he want his character to do.
DM say: Yes, No, ask a roll, or rely on a precise game mechanic, then describe more clearly the result.

 

[Remathilis]

if we make it so that everything is implicitly magical in the fantasy world including the pure martial fighters does that mean we can stop needing to explicitly apply magical flavour justifications anytime they do anything that's slightly beyond what a guy at the gym would be capable of in the real world?

I do not understand this hardline resistance to saying all D&D classes have explicit magical/supernatural abilities beyond the abilities of normal people, but sure. If we can't make the make fighters and rogues explicitly magical, we'll make the whole damn world explicitly magical.

 

[TheSword]

To be fair, for a start, no one is responsible for someone else’s statements. Beyond that, the post you’re replying isn’t even saying you can’t optionally add things to a base class. Just that it must be optional.

The truly mad part of this discussion is that every martial class has the ability to add supernatural/magical elements.

The argument goes…

A: There’s a martial v caster disparity!

B: I’m not sure there is

A: There is because casters can do things that martials can’t.

B: Yes but I’m the grand scheme of things that isn’t improyant

A: It is, and the world hates martials, they’re useless

B: Well they’re very popular, the most popular (shows stats)

A: They’re just new players who don’t know the rules well enough.

B: Well here’s a survey on EnWorld full of Grognards that says otherwise

A: Popular doesn’t mean good and It doesn’t change the fact that there is still a disparity.

B: Ok well make a 3pp to create a mythic fighter if you think it will be popular.

A: No it has to be by WoC. They need to fix the martial v caster disparity

B: Well they’ve done a lot to address that since earlier editions.

A: Not enough. I want more.

B: Wait a minute, doesn’t every martial class have the ability to gain magic abilities through subclasses, races and feats. Can’t everyone know do some amazing things irrespective of what class they are provided they invest a little bit. Invisibility, flying, throwing fire bolts, magic shields, can all be taken by martial classes now right?

A: …

A: …

A: …

A: … Well obviously I don’t want them to cast spells!

B: [Bangs head on desk repeatedly]

 

[Pedantic]

I do not understand this hardline resistance to saying all D&D classes have explicit magical/supernatural abilities beyond the abilities of normal people, but sure. If we can't make the make fighters and rogues explicitly magical, we'll make the whole damn world explicitly magical.

Personally, I think theoretically universally accessible (or randomly accessible) supernatural ability that are unevenly and variably distributed is the best model. That's the engine that makes a bunch of modern fantasy work. It's fine (and frankly preferable) if character classes represent exceptional individuals and are a fairly rare trait in the general populace. You can even do "genius of hard work" if you have some martial cultivation model.

 

[fluffybunbunkittens]

Finally we get to cultivating your core! Next step, flying on your sword like you're surfing!

 

[Chaosmancer]

I mean limits not standard.

Humans has STR 11. The elite human tops at Strength 19 by rolling a 18 with a +1 racial.

An orc chief has Powerful Build and can go slightly over 20 with the Divine Blessing of a War god to Strength 22.

Ogres are STR 19. The elite ogre who rolls an 18 is STR 27 and Large size.

The base storm giant has STR 29. The elite storm giant who rolls a 18 is STR 37. Both are Huge size.

You aren't making any sense. An elite human tops at 20 in base 5e. They top at 25 if they are a barbarian with a single epic boon in One DnD (though they can go to 30 it says). So, I'm not sure why you are saying they roll an 18, get a +1 and then are done, when that simply is false.

An orc has the same limits, though I suppose powerful and a war god's blessing could give them a 27 in One DnD. However, a human could ALSO get a war god's blessing and so I'm not really sure why that should count.

I also don't know why you are assuming an ogre gets a +9 strength and can somehow get a 27, or why a storm giant gets a +19 strength and therefore can get a 37. Like, mathematically I get you subtracted 10 from their strength scores, but I don't know why you would think that means anything?

By your logic a baseline Empyreon gets a +20 to strength, and therefore would max out at 38, but we also have Aspects of Tiamat with 30 strength, so can we assume if she decided to make an aspect that was really strong she could make one with a 38 strength instead of a 30 strength? That just... isn't how these numbers are supposed to work. You can't take the statblock and then assume it is just a -10 to get racial mods.


But the real point here was to remind you and others that "human" limits are a bit squishy in DnD. Most martials end up as strong or stronger than ogres, Barbarians can end up matching dragons and giants with ease. But also, these are the exact same limits faced by elves, dwarves, warforged, goliaths and goblins.

We said it earlier, when running for days to run down the orcs, Gimli, Legolas, and the Orcs could all keep that pace because.... they were orcs, elves and dwarves, it was just expected of them. But Aragorn needed to have special lineage powers and training. Well, in DnD... elves, dwarves and humans are all on a level playing field. So using "human limits" doesn't make immediate sense.