D&D (2024) Martial vs Caster: Removing the "Magical Dependencies" of high level.

[bloodtide]

When you get into Tier 4 and 5, there really aren't a lot of good examples in genre fiction or in the game. Which rolls back around to the problem of what to do with non-casters at that point. There's all sorts of parts contributing to the problem.

The genre is always a problem. Take the Dumb Superman problem. Superman, and many of his super villains, are immune to any mundane harm. So what do we see in a Superman media? The bad guy picks up an truck and hits Superman with it and Superman flies backwards, through three buildings, and then just gets up like nothing happened. It is SUCH A WASTE OF TIME.

Then you get the Power problem. Take Thantos. By the start of Infinity War he could defeat the Avengers with just a pinky finger wiggle. Why does he not do this. One wiggle and they all turn into bubbles: Remember how easily he took out the Guardians of the Galaxy?

Or like the end of X-Men The Last Stand. As soon as the X-Men show up....Magento could have EASILY sent both Colossus and Wolverine to Mexico or way out into the Pacific Ocean. But he does not.

 

[Minigiant]

I feel the solution is, more precisely:

Pick which fantasy genre matches which D&D 5e levels.

Then the SETTING sticks to these levels only.

In other words, in a Tolkien-esque 5e setting, there might be no such thing as a level 13 character.

The thing about genres is....wait, didn't I already talk about this?

Why yes, yes I did, in page 5:

The best way is to...

do what 4e.

Go to level 30

 

[Yaarel]

Brainstorming here:

Game of Thrones
Student (1−4) with Professional (5−8) as cap.

Lord of the Rings
Professional (5−8) with Master (9−12) as cap.

Batman
Master (9−12) with Grandmaster (13−16) as cap.

X-Folks X-Men
Grandmaster (13−16) with Legend (17−20) as cap.

Superman
Legend (17−20) with Epic (21−24) as cap.



Obviously, each storyline has episodal exceptions to the above. I am referring to the overall tone of the narrative − for the purposes of building classes and settings to emulate it.

 

[Emberashh]

I feel the solution is, more precisely:

Pick which fantasy genre matches which D&D 5e levels.

Then the SETTING sticks to these levels only.

In other words, in a Tolkien-esque 5e setting, there might be no such thing as a level 13 character.

The thing about that is that the game drives its own fiction, and violating its genre is also going to violate how parts of the game work.

It can't run just any old setting you throw at it, no matter how much WOTC may say otherwise.

Like, some question what kinds of fiction can possibly support the idea of a single day of adventure being chock full of encounters.

Ill tell you what kind; Sword and Sorcery. But where S&S differs is that the stakes are lower and the dangers seldom world-threatening.

But you know what kind of fiction does have high stakes and often world-threatening dangers? Epic Fantasy.

Combine the two? You've got what DND actually is and can support.

You know, when I first entered the hobby and started interacting with different communities online, I was so incredulous at how often I ran across people lamenting how seemingly addicted people are to trying to make DND do everything under the sun when it just can't, and when theres often countless other games that already support what someone may want right out of the box.

But the longer Ive kept talking to people the more Im starting to see what those people were talking about.

Some are really adamant about trying to make DND fit into every kind of hole imaginaable other than the one its supposed to fit in. And rather than embrace it they'd rather waste all this energy trying to rationalize how its anything but what it actually is.

Ive said it before and Ill say it again: it isn't a problem with 5e as a system if someone simply doesn't like what it is.

Like, I don't call Pathfinder a bad game just because I think its soulless. Its a well designed game that mostly accomplished what it sets out to do. That I don't like it despite that isn't a criticism I can levy against it.

But some I guess are just in denial or something. So many games out there that do all kinds of things in all kinds of genres, and people keep trying to make a sword and sorcery/epic fantasy game somehow be a universal genre game.

Like, even that already exists. GURPS. Why spend all this energy fighting against a game you don't actually want to play?

 

[Milieu]

The best way is to...

do what 4e.

Go to level 30

This is a top to, you know, what we use on the table, but it's very, very special because, if you can see, the numbers all go to 30. Look, right across the board, 30, 30, 30 and...
Oh, I see. And most editions go up to 20?
Exactly.
Does that mean it's more powerful? Is it any more powerful?
Well, it's 10 more powerful, isn't it? It's not 20. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at 20. You're on 20 here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on 20 on your fighter. Where can you go from there? Where?
I don't know.
Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Put it up to 30.
30. Exactly. 10 more powerful.
Why don't you just make 20 more powerful and make 20 be the top number and make that a little more powerful?
...These go to 30.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

 

[Yaarel]

It can't run just any old setting you throw at it, no matter how much WOTC may say otherwise.

I use the D&D gaming engine for pretty much any setting ever.

To the point, I am too lazy to learn an other gaming system.

The only other engine I made an effort to learn is Cortex Prime.

(I consider Schwalb Shadow of the Demon Lord and Free League Year Zero System to be elegant versions of D&D.)


I use D&D to full effect for my near-future setting, where D&D magic mechanics repurposes for supertech and AI.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

This is a top to, you know, what we use on the table, but it's very, very special because, if you can see, the numbers all go to 30. Look, right across the board, 30, 30, 30 and...
Oh, I see. And most editions go up to 20?
Exactly.
Does that mean it's more powerful? Is it any more powerful?
Well, it's 10 more powerful, isn't it? It's not 20. You see, most blokes, you know, will be playing at 20. You're on 20 here, all the way up, all the way up, all the way up, you're on 20 on your fighter. Where can you go from there? Where?
I don't know.
Nowhere. Exactly. What we do is, if we need that extra push over the cliff, you know what we do?
Put it up to 30.
30. Exactly. 10 more powerful.
Why don't you just make 20 more powerful and make 20 be the top number and make that a little more powerful?
...These go to 30.

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

...what?

edit: nevermind, i read this out to a friend and he recognized the reference. i have been informed.

 

[Emberashh]

...what?

edit: nevermind, i read this out to a friend and he recognized the reference. i have been informed.

Can't just leave us hanging like that, my good chum.

 

[W'rkncacnter]

Can't just leave us hanging like that, my good chum.

fair enough.

 

[Yaarel]

@Emberashh

Can you give me an example of a genre that you feel one cannot use D&D for?

(I probably can use D&D for it.)