D&D 5E Cantrips, a Curious Thing

[Fanaelialae]

Which really again makes me wonder why there isn't some archetype that focuses exclusively on cantrips, gaining a wide array of them, and increasing their effectiveness through class features (as the Warlock and some Clerics can), and not even worry about spell slots.

My guess would be because it's tricky to make interesting when compared to the alternative (casting leveled spells).

The warlock, which is the closest official design to this concept IMO gets a lot of extras on top of being able to spam really strong eldritch blasts. I would say because a) spamming eldritch blast isn't really that interesting, and b) even with all the invocations that can buff eldritch blast, it still can't really hold a candle to something like Wish or True Polymorph.

Although I wouldn't be surprised if a 3p somewhere figured out a way to make such a design work, to either a greater or lesser extent.

 

[Lanefan]

The dissonance comes from seeing 1st-level spells as 1st-level spells. They're not. They're just spells that you can cast with as little as a 1st-level spell slot. As Fanaelialae points out, Ice Knife cast with a 9th level slot makes Fire Bolt almost look like a wasted turn (bonus action?).

Does that mean the problem lies in upcasting, where you can cast a lower level spell using a higher-level slot and get more bang for your buck?

If yes, wouldn't the answer be to restrict spells such that they can only be cast using a slot of their own level, thus limiting both the number of any given spell you can cast in a day and the power of said spell?

 

[cbwjm]

The answer here, though, is game balance. Back in 3e what you decribed is how it works. A fireball using a 3rd-level spell slot did Xd6 damage, where X is your level. Ergo, a 20-th level wizard did 20d6 damage to each enemy in a fireball.

In 3e, much like 2e, fireball damage was capped at 10 dice. The only real difference between a 10th level fireball and a 20th level fireball was range and save DC. This actually made fireball less deadly in 3e than 2e due to monsters now having more hit points, probably the reason why "friends don't let friends specialise in evocation" became a meme.

 

[Lanefan]

In 3e, much like 2e, fireball damage was capped at 10 dice. The only real difference between a 10th level fireball and a 20th level fireball was range and save DC. This actually made fireball less deadly in 3e than 2e due to monsters now having more hit points, probably the reason why "friends don't let friends specialise in evocation" became a meme.

3e - sadly and boringly - also took most of the risk out of fireball by not having it expand to fill its full volume regardless of the shape of the area in which it was cast.

 

[Charlaquin]

IF you can practice a spell to the point that it can be cast quickly and becomes more powerful over time, it begs the question of why these specific spells, and not any spell you want to master.

I would think it comes down to tradition. These are the spells that everyone learns first and practices most, because that’s the way it’s taught. Could you practice some other spell to the point that it becomes at-will for you? I guess, in theory, but that’s just not how it’s taught in the standard Arcane Traditions.

 

[Charlaquin]

This is interesting because the warlock invocations and a high level wizard feature can turn low level spells into at will spells

Exactly!

 

[Krachek]

I would say that a Wizard already study all spells and cantrip from all levels.
But his understanding of magic, the shifting wave of the arcane flux make him only able to use some of these spells with a variable degree of efficiency.
A first level wizard know in theory what is a Wish, but it will take years before it can make his mind clear, sharp, to use it. And then maybe not at will. Stress, fatigue, external factor in the realm of arcane flux may make him unable to use it, but sometime he can.
As for cantrip it is the same, a caster has some preference, gift about some kind of magic. He can do some more easily with more efficiency.
In my interpretation a wizard don’t even know he has spell slots. Only the player do!

 

[James Gasik]

Kobold Press has a "cantrip adept" subclass for wizards in Tome of Heroes. The features:
2nd level - extra cantrips and ability to cast cantrip as bonus action limited times per day
6th level - add mod damage to cantrip
10th - extend time of cantrip that imposes condition effects
14th - maximize damage from cantrip limited number of times

Yes, I'm aware, but they're still a Wizard with spell slots. I was thinking more like "cantrips only", so something you could imagine a Fighter or Rogue getting into. Basically eschewing the spell slot model of casting.

 

[James Gasik]

I would say that a Wizard already study all spells and cantrip from all levels.
But his understanding of magic, the shifting wave of the arcane flux make him only able to use some of these spells with a variable degree of efficiency.
A first level wizard know in theory what is a Wish, but it will take years before it can make his mind clear, sharp, to use it. And then maybe not at will. Stress, fatigue, external factor in the realm of arcane flux may make him unable to use it, but sometime he can.
As for cantrip it is the same, a caster has some preference, gift about some kind of magic. He can do some more easily with more efficiency.
In my interpretation a wizard don’t even know he has spell slots. Only the player do!

Interesting, so for all the Wizard knows, they have an "MP pool" they draw spells from. They have a set amount of magical power to work with, they know how to ration it or put extra power behind a spell, and that's that.

 

[GMMichael]

Does that mean the problem lies in upcasting, where you can cast a lower level spell using a higher-level slot and get more bang for your buck?

If yes, wouldn't the answer be to restrict spells such that they can only be cast using a slot of their own level, thus limiting both the number of any given spell you can cast in a day and the power of said spell?

Maybe I worked too much today, but this doesn't seem to follow the discussion. I'm saying that it's a mistake to see a Cantrip as "better than" a 1st level spell, because there are no first level spells. There are inherent magics and imposed magics.