D&D 5E Worldbuilding: destruction and siege via Mold Earth?

[kigmatzomat]

The spell has 4 uses in combat

1) make a hole & a dirt pile adjacent to the hole you can hide in/behind

2) make a hole under a Wall spell

3) make difficult terrain, including solid rock

4) make terrain un-difficult, including solid rock

There is a bonus 5th use of adding some kind of markings, which doesnt have a specific value in combat. #3-5 expire after 1 minute and a caster can only have up to three active.

The reading of "loose soil" to mean "disturbed soil" makes 1 and 2 impossible unless you are fighting in a recently tilled garden. Soil is disturbed when a plow or bulldozer or shovel has removed it from its bank.

The opposite of "loose soil" is "compacted soil". Soil gets compacted under roads, buildings or boulders. Some soils, especially in desert areas, can be naturally compacted for multiple reasons. Getting rained on 2-3 a year can cause compaction. Salts and minerals can act as cement activated by small quantities of water)

At some point the compaction can turn soil to something impenetrable. Shale, slate and sandstone were all clay, silt and sands, until they weren't. Only #3-5 work on rock.

Imo, if a wooden shovel used by an average person could not dig a hole, Mold Earth #1-2 would not work as the soil is proto-sandstone or shale or slate (even if geologists don't call it that).

 

[jmartkdr2]

the idea that it's the players fault for using a poorly designed mechanic to thier benefit, is a very toxic one to video games and rpg's. If you want to defend it then lets just call it bad game design.

It's more "design that didn't account for the full scope of the ttrpg possibility space" - which, given that the latter is infinite means we would need infinite rulebooks to have "good" design.

DnD isn't a seige warfare simulator. Ergo, it's not bad design to not have rules that account for seige warfare.

And yeah, I would absolutely houserule that cantrips get tiring over time, much like I would rule that a fighter can't actually swing a sword for 8 hours strait. It's just that the limit is way past a normal fight duration of "rarely more than a minute," so we don't normally bother to track.

 

[overgeeked]

So far I have been on the page of "it depends on the DM" but this one seems down right hostile. "I can see the sand, so I move 5ft of it" "No, you can only see at most a few inches on top" isn't reading the spell at all.

No, not hostile at all. Pure simulation. If something's buried under even 1-2 inches of dirt you cannot see it. So no, you cannot see whatever is under that layer of dirt...even if it's just more dirt. An argument could be made that the PC just has to see a point of the effected area, but that in no way implies that the PC can see the whole volume of dirt.

"The DM won't let me cheese the spell's description" does not equate to a hostile DM. It's a mismatch of expectations and preferences. This is what I was talking about in the post after the one you quoted. Power fantasy / fantasy superheroes vs simulation. The game is stuck between them and the group needs to sort out which side of this they're on. If the players are on the power fantasy / fantasy superheroes side while the referee is on the simulation side, they're all going to have a bad time.

My favorite use for the spell is setting up camp. Okay I'm going to take 2 minutes (20 rounds) and dig a bunch of 5ft holes, and I pile the dirt up on the other side of them making a 5ft dirt wall on the other side.

At best you'd get several loose mounds of dirt. You can only have two lasting effects at a time. Even granting one lasting effect equals one wall, which is a wild stretch of the spell's description, you'd at most get two 5ft walls. The spell doesn't turn loose earth into compacted and shaped earth without at least using a lasting effect. The size difference between loose earth and compacted is fairly substantial. Your 5ft wall would be way shorter than you expected once compacted.

 

[greg kaye]

... This kind of analysis (yours in the quoted post) is simulation, while most players want the power fantasy. ...

Being able to move 5ft cube quantities of loose earth by magic with one 6-second action is definitely fantasy, albeit with a relatively base outcome.
I think it's also fair to analyze any fantasy spell to evaluate exactly the kind of things it is capable of.

 

[overgeeked]

Being able to move 5ft cube quantities of loose earth by magic with one 6-second action is definitely fantasy, albeit with a relatively base outcome.

Fantasy does not equate to power fantasy. Fantasy is a broad genre. Power fantasy is a style of game play. I'm talking about power fantasy, not the fantasy genre.

I think it's also fair to analyze any fantasy spell to evaluate exactly the kind of things it is capable of.

Sure, but be aware that's a purely simulationist way of looking at the issue. A whole lot of player do not want simulationist analysis of their capabilities, they want the referee to just say "yes, and..." and let them do the cool awesome thing...which is power fantasy.

 

[overgeeked]

It's more "design that didn't account for the full scope of the ttrpg possibility space" - which, given that the latter is infinite means we would need infinite rulebooks to have "good" design.

DnD isn't a seige warfare simulator. Ergo, it's not bad design to not have rules that account for seige warfare.

Exactly. No rulebook or game system that a human could run can possibly account for the totality of possibilities of the real world to say nothing of the endless possibilities of fantasy. RPGs are supposed to let the players try anything, i.e. tactical infinity. The rules have to be abstract enough to handle anything...so the rules are comprehensible and runnable by humans. Otherwise the game's rules would be so dense and complicated you'd need to run them on a supercomputer.

And yeah, I would absolutely houserule that cantrips get tiring over time, much like I would rule that a fighter can't actually swing a sword for 8 hours strait. It's just that the limit is way past a normal fight duration of "rarely more than a minute," so we don't normally bother to track.

The more I see cantrips and the power creep players seem to push with them, like this for example, the more I want to make them all 1st-level spells that last 1 hour. Yes, you can do this cool thing...but, no...you cannot do it infinite times.

 

[AmandaBarbarian]

No, not hostile at all. Pure simulation. If something's buried under even 1-2 inches of dirt you cannot see it. So no, you cannot see whatever is under that layer of dirt...even if it's just more dirt. An argument could be made that the PC just has to see a point of the effected area, but that in no way implies that the PC can see the whole volume of dirt.

you are saying that the effect that is litterally written in the cantrip as what it can do, you would not let it do... that isn't simulatining its house ruleing away part of the spell

"The DM won't let me cheese the spell's description"

The DM wont let me do what the spell SAYS it does, no cheese.

It's a mismatch of expectations and preferences.

yeah I expect if I take something that says I can move 5ft of earth I can move 5ft of earth.

This is what I was talking about in the post after the one you quoted. Power fantasy / fantasy superheroes vs simulation. The game is stuck between them

the game says it can move 5 cubic feet of earth, so either you don't want the spell to do what it says or you are misuderstanding what "move 5ft means"

At best you'd get several loose mounds of dirt. You can only have two lasting effects at a time. Even granting one lasting effect equals one wall, which is a wild stretch of the spell's description, you'd at most get two 5ft walls.

it doesn't say the earth moves back (I mean I always assume some does, just like if i dug it with a shovel).

The spell doesn't turn loose earth into compacted and shaped earth without at least using a lasting effect.

I didn't say it did... it moves the earth though, all 5ft of it

The size difference between loose earth and compacted is fairly substantial. Your 5ft wall would be way shorter than you expected once compacted.

why would it be compacted? what would the force down on top of it be compacting it?

 

[greg kaye]

...
Imo, if a wooden shovel used by an average person could not dig a hole, Mold Earth #1-2 would not work as the soil is proto-sandstone or shale or slate (even if geologists don't call it that).

If by saying that, when a hole can be dug (even over an extended period of time) with a wooden shovel, we could also say that a 5ft cube of this earth could be moved in 6 seconds by magic, then many castles and town buildings would easily be able to be undermined via the spell as a downtime activity.
Mold Earth #2 does not necessarily need to be interpreted as requiring movement within the earth according to the wording: "You cause shapes, colors, or both to appear on the dirt or stone, spelling out words, creating images, or shaping patterns."

 

[overgeeked]

you are saying that the effect that is litterally written in the cantrip as what it can do, you would not let it do... that isn't simulatining its house ruleing away part of the spell

The DM wont let me do what the spell SAYS it does, no cheese.

yeah I expect if I take something that says I can move 5ft of earth I can move 5ft of earth.

the game says it can move 5 cubic feet of earth, so either you don't want the spell to do what it says or you are misuderstanding what "move 5ft means"

There are three stipulations to the spell. 1) loose earth, and; 2) that you can see, and; 3) no more than two lasting effects.

If the earth is not loose and/or if you cannot see it, you cannot effect that earth. If you want to do anything more than move the loose earth that you can see, that requires 1 of the 2 lasting effects...which are also precisely delineated. That is how spells work. You get to do this cool thing within these limitations.

To try to argue those stipulations/limitations away is to cheese the spell's description.

it doesn't say the earth moves back (I mean I always assume some does, just like if i dug it with a shovel).

I didn't say it did... it moves the earth though, all 5ft of it

why would it be compacted? what would the force down on top of it be compacting it?

A wall is a constructed object that is designed to not fall down. A big mound of loose earth is not a wall. To make a wall you'd need to manipulate the loose earth somehow. One way would be to compact it. Another would be to manipulate it with a lasting effect of the cantrip...which you can only have two going at one time.

A 5ft cube of loose earth will not stay a 5ft cube of loose earth. It will settle. The edges will collapse and spread out. You'll end up with a loose mound, the apex of which will be roughly 5ft high, the edges of which will stretch several feet in all directions. The cantrip does not transform loose earth into a Lego brick of compacted dirt. The "wall" this creates would be some level of cover at best.

 

[overgeeked]

If by saying that, when a hole can be dug (even over an extended period of time) with a wooden shovel, we could also say that a 5ft cube of this earth could be moved in 6 seconds by magic, then many castles and town buildings would easily be able to be undermined via the spell as a downtime activity.
Mold Earth #2 does not necessarily need to be interpreted as requiring movement within the earth according to the wording: "You cause shapes, colors, or both to appear on the dirt or stone, spelling out words, creating images, or shaping patterns."

No, because structures are not built on loose earth. The cantrip specifically calls out that the effected dirt must be loose earth. If someone constructs a building on top of loose earth, the building will fall down on its own...no need for a caster to help with that.